In his book ?Prometheus Rising? Robert Anton Wilson talks about a theory of ?first orgasm imprint? - basically the concept is that whatever your mind-set, physical surroundings and physical stimulation at the time of first conscious orgasm, these become a pattern which is very hard to break from in determining how you bring yourself to orgasm there after.

An anecdote:- a guy was enjoying his first experience of intercourse in the back of a car, unfortunately at the moment just before ejaculating a policeman popped his head through the window - from then on the unfortunate guy could only ever ejaculate if something relating to a policeman was in the environment - a combination of gross fear locked with intense pleasure made it impossible to unlearn this context.

Wilson notes that most indigenous cultures are very careful about such things ensuring there are initiation rites which set the best context for first orgasm to integrate the pubescent individual to the mind-set of the tribe.

It has only recently occurred to me that of course the most important link in the majority of cases is that at first conscious orgasm experience you are inevitably going to merge ?orgasm? with ?ejaculation? - given the intensity of the experience it then becomes very difficult to separate the two, we experience them as indistinguishable at a crucial point in our nervous system development and never really stand back and ask whether they are different.

I?ve just got a gut feeling that Jack?s ?key sound? technique is sufficiently blasting to enable this very strong pattern to be unlearnt - otherwise we remain ?slaves? to our first orgasm imprint.

Would be very interested on any ones views on this and any anecdotes which might support the theory.

No doubt this is true...I get a hard on every time I hear the shower running...then if only someone knocks on the door while I'm taking a shower, jiz flies!

Seriously, there is something to this, and I am interested in finding out if anyone knows about this tribal ritual aspect. I've read that the Cherokee tribes of native Americans have a practice called something like 'Quodoshkee', wherein the adult males take adolescent males off for an introduction into self respect-self loving according to their beliefs.This seems tremendously more healthy and helpful than the 'hair in your palms...make you go blind' strategies of (at least) American culture. Of course, the logical extension of all current American trends is the adolescent circle jerk, in which you try to make your partner shoot his wad as soon as possible. A literal race to pleasure.

No wonder the mastery of MMO takes so long...we are in too much of a hurry, just like the rest of our lives.

Have you noticed, however, how clock time flies by when you are in the suspended state of continual orgasm? Literally, for me, an hour seems but an instant, and yet, take an hour of any other intense focus-requiring activity, and you are exhausted. Not so with MMO. I am so intensified and energized, and feel so well that anything is suddenly possible. In fact, I usually MMO before every workout, and have documented that I am at least 10% stronger after MMO than if I go straight to the weights. Also, before the "big game" business-wise, I always try to MMO for a while, and believe me, it calms and focuses! And, I really see no measurable difference in performance or state of mind whether I pop the cream at the end, or not.

Anyway, if you know of a source on this Cherokee Quodoshkee or similar, please write!

On 8/14/97 2:32:13 AM, tantrabear wrote:
>In his book ?Prometheus
>Rising? Robert Anton Wilson
>talks about a theory of ?first
>orgasm imprint? - basically
>the concept is that whatever
>your mind-set, physical
>surroundings and physical
>stimulation at the time of
>first conscious orgasm, these
>become a pattern which is very
>hard to break from in
>determining how you bring
>yourself to orgasm there
>after.

Yes and add to this "burning in" of an intense memory all of the religious and cultural CRAP about self-pleasure being a sin etc. and it's a miracle ANY of us get beyond it. Nevertheless it creates a source of guilt and frustration which stimulates a LOT of cashflow in organized religions, and lays the groundwork for having a vast reservoir of soldiers ready to "stick it to" someone.

As US Marine recruits are taught to recite in boot camp ("piece"=their rifle, "gun" their penis... they point to one and then the other as they recite the poem): This is my piece and this is my gun, this one's for killing and this one's for fun.

Another example is super macho hero/convicted felon and highly popular talkshow host G.Gordon Liddy's email address: potent357@aol.com
That's 357 as in .357 magnum revolver! Potent indeed!


>An anecdote:- a guy was
>enjoying his first experience
>of intercourse in the back of
>a car, unfortunately at the
>moment just before ejaculating
>a policeman popped his head
>through the window - from then
>on the unfortunate guy could
>only ever ejaculate if
>something relating to a
>policeman was in the
>environment - a combination of
>gross fear locked with intense
>pleasure made it impossible to
>unlearn this context.

Not impossible, but definitely challenging. A great deal of bondage and domination play is devoted to exploring these kinds of situations. Depending on the individuals involved, such play may only serve to reinforce the original trauma, or it may with the right caring people involved, perhaps help one work through the trauma so that different ways of experiencing orgasm in different "scenes" can become a choice.

There are also therapies available which in some cases can help one "trance-end" dependence on a particular scene or elements for arousal. Again, it's about VARIETY and CHOICE.

>Wilson notes that most
>indigenous cultures are very
>careful about such things
>ensuring there are initiation
>rites which set the best
>context for first orgasm to
>integrate the pubescent
>individual to the mind-set of
>the tribe.

Wow what a concept! Other studies have shown that the cultures which are most assiduous about creating a supportive environment for these first (and subsequent) sexual milestones ALSO TEND TO BE THE LEAST VIOLENT AND MILITARISTIC. Hmmmmmmm...

>It has only recently occurred
>to me that of course the most
>important link in the majority
>of cases is that at first
>conscious orgasm experience
>you are inevitably going to
>merge ?orgasm? with
>?ejaculation? -

Well, not inevitably... That's the tendency in many of our cultures, but if one is lovingly introduced to self-pleasure as ok and as a sacred spiritual path, shifting the focus away from getting off to learning how to GRADUALLY build the charge, hold it, move it around, raise and lower the power, etc., then such a meld becomes less inevitable.

And... oh yeah, it ALSO helps if SOMEONE just happens to say, "You know what? Orgasm and ejaculation MAY not be the same event! Orgasm is bioENERGETIC, ejaculation is PROSTATIC!"

> given the
>intensity of the experience it
>then becomes very difficult to
>separate the two, we
>experience them as
>indistinguishable at a crucial
>point in our nervous system
>development and never really
>stand back and ask whether
>they are different.

Fortunately media such as the Internet are helping us TRANCE END that conditioning! It IS very intense conditioning, nonetheless!

>I?ve just got a gut feeling
>that Jack?s ?key sound?
>technique is sufficiently
>blasting to enable this very
>strong pattern to be unlearnt
>- otherwise we remain ?slaves?
>to our first orgasm imprint.

Thanks T-bear! "Blasting"? Perhaps, but along with all of that is the information that orgasm and ejaculation ARE separate events, AND a great deal of coaching and permission to go SLOWER rather than FASTER, to focus on the PLEASURE and what one is feeling rather than on just trying to get off. I believe the Key Sound is crucial in giving the rising energy someplace else to go (out through sound) instead of out thru the penis (ejaculation), but the other aspects of going slowly, realizing that orgasm CAN be experienced as separate from ejac, etc. all also play an integral role in liberating us.

AS DOES, by the way, the ability to SHARE INFORMATION AND EXPERIENCES WITH OTHERS. That's why your posts, Jesse's, and the others are SO vital to this process. It's not just this guy Jack saying hey this works. You guys at MANY miles distant from where I live are reporting STARTLINGLY SIMILAR experiences and milestones as you open to this energy. And THAT __REALLY__ let's others know that "Hey, things CAN be different than what I was taught!"

So... thanks again and again for your loving energy and sharing here, brother!
>Would be very interested on
>any ones views on this and any
>anecdotes which might support
>the theory.
>
>

Q.E.D. ;-)
Jack

On 8/14/97 4:07:10 AM, jhill wrote:
[snip]
>I've read that the
>Cherokee tribes of native
>Americans have a practice
>called something like
>'Quodoshkee', wherein the
>adult males take adolescent
>males off for an introduction
>into self respect-self loving
>according to their
>beliefs.This seems
>tremendously more healthy and
>helpful than the 'hair in your
>palms...make you go blind'
>strategies of (at least)
>American culture.

Search the Internet for "Quodoshka" and for Harley Swiftdeer. Another possible contact for this info is a Tantric Shamaness, Lola Babalon, POB 645, Topanga CA 90290; please tell her I suggested the contact.



Of course,
>the logical extension of all
>current American trends is the
>adolescent circle jerk, in
>which you try to make your
>partner shoot his wad as soon
>as possible. A literal race to
>pleasure.

Please see the new conference I'm creating called "Ejaculation Compulsion" - Societal Effects of NOT knowing MMO!

>No wonder the mastery of MMO
>takes so long...we are in too
>much of a hurry, just like the
>rest of our lives.

All too true! That's why from my earliest writings, I have been urging people with the mantra "Lower and SLOWER".
>Have you noticed, however, how
>clock time flies by when you
>are in the suspended state of
>continual orgasm? Literally,
>for me, an hour seems but an
>instant, and yet, take an hour
>of any other intense
>focus-requiring activity, and
>you are exhausted. Not so with
>MMO. I am so intensified and
>energized, and feel so well
>that anything is suddenly
>possible.

Yes, this is an effect that has been reported by a number of people who have learned MMO, that contrary to ejaculorgasm which leaves many men sleepy, etc., MMO typically ENERGIZES us. Unfortunately, sometimes even THIS bounty can be too much to handle, as described by Ed in past chats (search the Chat Archive Index for chats with Ed...BTW it's a good idea to put a space before and after Ed so you don't get the "ed" string everytime it shows up in any other word!).

> In fact, I usually
>MMO before every workout, and
>have documented that I am at
>least 10% stronger after MMO
>than if I go straight to the
>weights.

WOW!!! So when are you going to publish those findings??? I'm actually rather serious! Can you see an article by jhill in Muscle, Fitness, and other 'zines?

Ironic isn't it that coaches tell the team to practice sexual abstinence b4 the big game? So now coach jhill sez: be SURE to practice NON-ejac MMO's b4 the big game, it's our secret weapon!!!


> Also, before the "big
>game" business-wise, I always
>try to MMO for a while, and
>believe me, it calms and
>focuses!

...and the articles in Muscle can be followed by articles in Forbes and Fortune, right jhill? We' re dealing with some major revolution here!


> And, I really see no
>measurable difference in
>performance or state of mind
>whether I pop the cream at the
>end, or not.

As they say in the ads, "results may vary", but I know this for sure, that ejaculorgasm AFTER a few NON-ejac MMO's is a LOT more pleasurable and for me also tends to be a LOT more energizing.


>Anyway, if you know of a
>source on this Cherokee
>Quodoshkee or similar, please
>write!
>

Please see suggestions above. Would you please post your findings, including URLs etc. to the Q & A Comparison with Other Methods conference?

Thanks!
Jack