I'd like to know what is the difference in the normal male orgasm and the male orgasm of one who's free from the male refractory period? I have noticed that when I ejaculate I lose that pleasurable sensation and sometimes feel tired. Most of the time I get very irritable and cranky. As my arousal gets higher and higher then right after the orgasm CRASH! The higher more intense arousal level during orgasm the bigger the crash is what I have experienced. Are some of these feelings effects of the MRP? Other than the ability to experience MMO with ejaculation, how does this compare with a man who doesn't suffer this annoying feature?

Hey Gerry,

I have been able to have multiple ejaculations from the same erection since I was around 13. However, I've also experienced the CRASH you talked about as well. Basically, it was a lot easier to have multiple ejaculations from my early teens to my early 20's. Eventually, time, smoking, and chronic pain caught up with me and it wasn't as easy as it used to be. I can still do it when the I feel the need/desire to really "empty the tank." But mostly, I don't bother with it anymore.
So what's the difference? Well, there's not much of one really. At least not compared to multiple non-ejaculatory orgasms. I mean, I guess the main difference is, I didn't have that sudden drop in arousal immediately. So I got a couple more peaks before the eventually CRASH.
But whether I would have one ejaculation or several, I still had that same drained feeling afterwards. For me, it wasn't irritability as much as depression. Regardless, I certainly noticed a difference between how I felt after my orgasms and how my girlfriends felt. They always seemed so charged up and happy, and I felt so wiped out, I'd think, "It's not fair!" The truth is, I'm always amazed at how much interest there is in multiple ejaculations. The only real benefit I got out of it was being able to perform a bit longer, or maybe impress my partners. I still wasn't happy or satisfied. I wanted what my girlfriends had, unlimited access to multi-orgasmic release without any CRASH at all!
That's where KSMO comes in. By the time I started KSMO (age 27), I was starting to become pretty depressed about being a guy and really feeling those Refractory Periods more and more. I had the feeling that it was, "all downhill from here." So I looked everywhere for a technique that would help me have orgasms without ejaculating at all.
KSMO was exactly what I needed, at just the right time. After a few months of practice, I found that I didn't have much of an urge to ejaculate most of the time and when I did, it felt a lot less draining after a lot of multiple orgasms.
I think the main reason is because the Refractory Period is caused more by the brain than the body. When you are feeling orgasmic, your brain is releasing pleasure endorphins and you feel, "alive." Right after ejaculation, most guys brains send out signals to release sleep hormones which tell the body to shut down for awhile and get some rest. So when you build up to a really high level of arousal and then go right into ejaculation, your brain seems to view that as a major release of energy and doubles up on the sleep hormones to compensate (just a theory).
BUT, when you can build up those arousal levels AND experience multi-orgasmic release without ejaculation, I think the brain kinda goes, "Wow, this is good! Let's keep this going." So this way, you're getting all the pleasure and stress relief of ejaculation, without telling your brain it's time to shut down. In a way, you're kind of retraining your brain's response to orgasm and eventually ejaculation too.
After, a couple years of KSMO practice, I never get that drained or depressed feeling after I ejaculate anymore, even if I haven't had multiple "dry," orgasms first. Before KSMO, I was sure that that feeling was only going to get worse as I got older, but instead it's actually gotten much better! Of course, I also ejaculate a lot less than I used to. I just prefer the extra energy and mood elevation I get from finishing without the Big Bang.
So, in conclusion, multiple ejaculations is really no big deal. Knowing what I know, I wouldn't waste a minute worrying about it. Although, being able to have multiple ejac's put me in a small percentage of the male population, I don't think I have anything over any of the other Adepts here who've learned KSMO. In fact, if I could go back in time and trade that ability for the chance to learn KSMO at the age of 18, I'd do it in a second!
I hope this clears things up a bit, and I wish you the very best in your practice!

Pan :-)

Just for another point of view, "comparing" orgasms and
ejaculations is ok hypothetically, but we all are quite different I
think, and there is nothing wrong with that! Until recently I had no
idea that many men felt depressed or down after ejaculating.

When I was a teen and into my 20's (mid 40's now) I self pleasured
almost every day and sometimes when once didn't seem like
enough, I'd wait a few moments and do it again. I didn't do that all
that often, but I don't ever recall feeling depressed or down after
ejaculating. Maybe I did rarely, but again, I don't recall that. I felt
great during and after, whether once or more than once.
Sometimes yeah, I felt a bit tired, but never exhausted or anything.
I wouldn't feel particularly sleepy either. I'd be in a heightened
relaxed and energetic state afterward. That state would only last
maybe a half hour tops, whereas KSMO aftereffects have lasted up
to 7 or 8 hours sometimes...the tingling and the pleasant feelings,
the sense of feeling loved and so on.

I remember reading about ejaculation and how some men have a
single gush whereas others have multi pumps; that was news to
me too. I usually had 4 to 8 ejaculatory spurts during a single
session back then, now 4 or 5. If I did another round immediately
after, there were fewer spurts.

Unless one wants to ejaculate, I don't think ejaculation offers that
much in the line of pleasure. I get a lot more pleasure both during
and after a session from KSMO. The pleasurable effects go deeper
and last way longer...which changes my outlook on life...which
changes the quality of my life which changes the way I live my life.
The orgasm is where the pleasure is, the pleasure is not in
ejaculating, at least for me...I didn't always know that though!

I just wanted to say that the depressed or drained feeling while
apparently quite common is not universal. I don't know why that is.
I too wish I knew about KSMO in my teens.

With partners in the past I have found that it was me who takes too
long. I did not try to be this way. I just seemed to like feeling things
slowly and building from there...and falling from there, riding the
feelings around...going where they go. That has been the most
pleasurable form of lovemaking for me. I guess contact, skin,
touch, breath, and feelings (with and without penetration) are what
do it for me. Because of this, I certainly have felt pressure from
partners to get to it, to perform, which was troubling. During one of
my early experiences I was told "Make love to me" and I'm like
"What do you think I'm doing!" Expectations, images, and
misunderstanding hurt. So there is an image apparently that sex
isn't "real sex" unless it is done a certain way and within a certain
time frame. I hate that! So if there was anything about women that
got to me, it was how I felt misunderstood or not accepted as I am.
But the tired thing, or the depression afterward...no. Probably
because I was never forcing myself to be vigorous. I approached
lovemaking as sort of an improvised song, experiencing the highs
and lows and everything in between...until "the song" was done,
because that was the way I liked it. Still do!

KSMO has provided a new way to have sex, or better, a new way
to experience pleasure. For my wife and I, the exploration of
something that is not "regular sex" has gotten rid of the usual
expectations and images of sex and made lovemaking more
uniquely ours, and therefore more pleasurable and more of a
shared and synchronized experience...I don't feel tired or
depressed after that either! We are still novices at this, which really
isn't so bad as learning this together is pretty cool.

All I can think of is that maybe shame is a factor in the depressed
or irritable feelings. Shame apparently is different from
embarrassment. Embarrassment comes from what we do, shame
comes from who we are. If we are ashamed of ourselves we hide
that deep inside and create a persona of who we want the world to
see us as. If we live the persona completely, maybe a sexual
experience is so intimate that we can't help seeing our real self
emerge, and when it doesn't compare with our persona, we get
pissed. Just a thought. Or maybe a cigar is just a cigar and there is
simply a physical let down of sorts.

I don't know if this helps anyone. I hope so. We are all similar and
yet also very different.

Hey Mike,

It's interesting you felt like, "the slow one," in your lovemaking. That certainly is incredibly rare! In fact, I don't think I've ever heard a guy say their girlfriend was upset that they wouldn't, "speed it up a bit." I mean, before I had sex I had heard and read enough about the importance of foreplay to know to let things build up before the Big Event, and I enjoyed taking my time anyway. But to actually need more time to become aroused or feel ready for intercourse than the woman? That's a new one on me. I guess you learn something new every day!
I have found it interesting that with KSMO, it sometimes takes me longer to build up to my orgasmic potential than my wife. Actually, I've found that if she has a couple orgasms, that erotic energy goes into me and then I respond with my own and so on. But whether solo or with my wife, I've found that although I sometimes go right into the orgasmic state, usually the peak orgasms occur towards the middle and end of my sessions, after 30 minutes or so. I find that building quality to be really quite wonderful. It certainly beats just holding off for a long time and then, "letting go," into ejaculation at the end!
I certainly agree with you that ejaculation isn't all that big of deal in terms of pleasure. At least not compared with MMO's. That why I'm always amazed at how many guys seem fascinated by multiple ejaculations. I mean, before I was on medications and what-not, I used to have ejaculations that lasted perhaps 2-3 minutes, with usually around 30 or 40 contractions. I don't know how long that is compared with the average, but my partners always seemed surprised at how long I was "cumming," for. But I've found that the pleasure I get from one non-ejac orgasm is easily equivalent to the total amount of pleasure I'd get from 3 or 4 ejaculatory orgasms. So for me, one hour of KSMO easily gives me about as much pleasure as one or two months worth of ejaculatory orgasms. There's just no comparison there!
As for shame being a factor in the Refractory Periods. Well, I certainly think shame is a tremendous problem in our culture. I've definitely met my share of folks, both male and female, with overwhelming shame around sexuality. But I don't think that's directly connected to the Male Refractory Period. MRP is definitely a physical phenomena. Why else would the old joke about men falling asleep, while their partners want to cuddle and talk be so prevalent? They can't all be ashamed, many are just sleepy!
I think, if anything, shame is more connected to orgasm than ejaculation, since I've heard about it in both sexes quite a bit. Orgasm, is by nature, a very exposing and vulnerable experience. So it brings up all kinds of issues or, "Furballs," in lots of folks.
All I can say is, shame isn't something I identify with when it comes to sex. I've always been quite...uh, outgoing in that department. Actually, when I was younger, I had a lot of trouble understanding why so many people I knew felt bad about sex and pleasure. I always saw it as a tragedy that more of us don't enjoy ourselves and our bodies.
I think the source of my post-ejaculatory depression was actually the opposite of shame. I didn't feel bad for feeling good, I wanted to feel even better! I just felt like the difference between my, "equipment," and women's made me unable to experience extended and repeated orgasms, and that really bothered me. I felt kinda, "left out," that way. In fact, I had decided that the reason why men couldn't have multiple orgasms was because women had to endure childbirth. I figured that was God's way of, "evening the playing field," for both sexes.
Now, with KSMO, I have a whole new perspective on things. I see a world where everyone can get the pleasure they want and need. In fact, thanks to a recent post by Adept Drew in the, "Woman's Experiences," section, now I wonder if there may even be a way for women to have natural childbirth with little or no pain, perhaps even through using the Key Sound! [BTW, it's a great post, I highly recommend it]
So, my thinking is that the Refractory Period is just a neuro-chemical process, but the feeling of fatigue can lead to introspection and therein lies the potential for feeling one's Furballs. In my case it was depression, because I wanted more pleasure, in Gerry's case, it's irritation. I think that although those emotions can be vary from one guy to the next, the central issue for many of us is conscious or unconscious feelings of dissatisfaction. A desire for MORE.
Sometimes, I still get that feeling of being, "drained," after I ejaculate, especially if it's several times in a row. But now, I actually enjoy it! I like to call it my, "natural valium." Since I can rest in the knowledge that all the orgasms I could ever want are readily available to me, it leaves me with the opportunity to appreciate the relaxation and release of, "letting it all out." Not to mention it sure makes a great sleeping pill!

Cheers :-)

Pan,

Yeah, I was usually "the slow one". I think I felt my changing levels
and energy movements of arousal and wanted to feel them go
here and there through me. I so much enjoyed looking at and
feeling, tasting, etc. a womans various curves and parts, kissing
and so on, that there was always something else, some other part I
wanted to experience next or again. I just didn't want it to end. I
had heard of foreplay, but I didn't consider what I did that. My first
partner and I just did what we did and maybe that set a tone for
things for me that has remained with me.

I haven't had many partners, but two have urged me to get going,
speed it up and what not...and I really didn't like that. In both cases
we resolved things in time. While I did not try to be slow, I think the
slowness was driving them crazy in a good way to a certain
degree. I suppose they maybe felt teased, but that really wasn't
what I was doing. I'd often tease, but when I did that, I was blatant
about it. This was different. It was just "me."

Two to three minute ejaculations...30 to 40 contractions, wow! That
is almost a "fit" of some kind. Cool.

My wife and I are still in the early stages of feeling and trading
each others energy/echoes/orgasms, but we look forward to
getting better at it. We spend anywhere from 20 minutes to two or
three hours (when we have the time!) doing KSMO and manual
and oral things with each other. It is sort of a pleasure buffet with
no end result other than when we've had enough, that's it.
Intercourse hasn't been a part of it. We talk, laugh, play together,
and it's very satisfying.

Lately, in my KSMO solo sessions I get orgasms almost
immediately. Then there are ups and downs and short rests until I
am about 2/3 through the session. Then things get really good and
either stay there until I've had enough, or they kind of come apart.
But when things fall apart, maybe half the time the last one or two
KS have often been surprising, both as to pleasure itself and
feeling some form of love or something. But ejaculation isn't even a
factor anymore, the pleasure is far too good and too interesting to
care about anything else. It is interesting how your peaks are in the
middle and mine more near the end. I wonder how it goes for
others. It doesn't really matter I guess, it is just interesting.

This gets off the track of this post a bit, but I had been feeling that
even though KSMO was so pleasurable, that I wasn't getting "all of
it." Maybe a week ago though, I self pleasured the old-fashioned
way and what a surprise. It seemed the KSMO feelings that I
thought were quite a bit less pleasurable than regular orgasm/
ejaculation were actually at about 95% of my regular orgasm/
ejaculation pleasure level...but KSMO can go on (and off) for an
hour or more and can be tapped here and there throughout the
day...so pleasurewise, there is simply no contest between the two.

I was surprised by this as my thinking apparently was focused on
the loss of 5% of the "full pleasure", rather than on the value of how
long the pleasure lasts using KSMO. Just as scientists doing those
MMO studies I guess, I found myself using orgasm/ejaculation as
the baseline to measure against, instead of just accepting what
was there. Somehow it must be that even scientists take as a given
that orgasm/ejaculation "says it all" and therefore is the only thing
to measure...which is a forced and limited point of view yielding a
limited answer.

I didn't mean to connect shame with refractory periods, one is
clearly mental and the other physical. Gerry's question equated
crashing and irritability to refractory periods. I changed the
question a bit and suggested that perhaps the crashing or other
down feelings might be related to how sex accesses our real self
and if that self doesn't compare well with the image we maintain for
others (or sometimes for ourselves) that the incongruity might
cause those down feelings. But, then again, maybe not. It might be
simply a physical thing. My view of this wasn't that the shame was
in any way attached to sexuality. The shame would come from
WHO we are, with sexuality being the solvent that dissolves who
we pretend to be (regardless of our views on sex), leaving us with
a startling and perhaps uncomfortable picture of our real self.

When you say "I didn't feel bad for feeling good, I wanted to feel
even better!" I know exactly what you mean, but for me that has
been a mind thing more than a body thing (refractory period). And
as you say, "the central issue for many of us is conscious or
unconscious feelings of dissatisfaction. A desire for MORE." I
totally agree. Lately though as I am becoming more and more
comfortable with KSMO, that desire for more is quite small or
nonexistent.

Thanks for your viewpoints and I hope hope Gerry has found or
will find his answer.

Hi Mike and Pan. I just wanted to make a few comments. Well Mike honestly I think that's quite unique that you don't feel angry, irritable, depressed, or drained after a full ejaculation. Now I don't know if that's the effect that the MRP has on men or not but all I know is it SUCKS! IMHO Mike you are genetically gifted as well because you don't feel this annoying feature. When I was a teen I sometimes couldn't understand those guys who chase skirts all day and beg for sex because I believed sexual pleasure was not such a big deal. I'm not trying to say I didn't like women no of course not. I know what it feels like to be extremely aroused by them but I sometimes asked God "is this as good as it gets" but I never really bothered with it. About your theory Pan that women should have more pleasure because of child birth. Well hear me out guys. This could be the most unmanly thing to say but if I was physically capable I WOULD carry that burden for women any day for multiple orgasms. Best regards guys

On 8/1/03 11:22:00 AM, Biscuit wrote:
>
>Hi Mike and Pan. I just wanted
>to make a few comments. Well
>Mike honestly I think that's
>quite unique that you don't
>feel angry, irritable,
>depressed, or drained after a
>full ejaculation. Now I don't
>know if that's the effect that
>the MRP has on men or not but
>all I know is it SUCKS! IMHO
>Mike you are genetically
>gifted as well because you
>don't feel this annoying
>feature.

This is something I think one must be careful about, because I know I'm like Mike too. I had always assumed until hearing it on this board that most guys enjoyed the peak and then the downward feeling, at least I've heard that from other guys. The only thing I didn't like about it was that it was now over and you couldn't go back and do it again. But, the release of all that sexual tension that had been building up gave me a very relaxed and contented feeling that I very much like.

Now, just as much for me as anyone else, it is easy for us to just assume everyone else is like me. I haven't heard or seen any study that actually details what percentage of the male population experiences one way or the other, so I would have no way to know if what Mike and I experience is in a minor percentage of males and so a "genetic gift" or not. Maybe it is. But I would find it hard to assume that this is the case with so many people that like to do this so much. It seems if that many felt that bad after it, that they would avoid it more and we wouldn't have such a sex crazed society. But that is just a theory, and until someone actually did a study on it...who knows? I only know how I experience it, and that is about it. But maybe someone has done a study on this and someone has the figures? Perhaps you are speaking from such a study too? Or is it just based on what you have experienced yourself and what others have said?

Another factor in all this that I don't know is how much of this is a physical thing or a different mode of interpreting the same physical event. IOW, yes, there is a big "let down" as I come down from the peak, but I experience this as more of a nice afterglow than depression. I'm not sure here what the difference is specifically, physical, mental or a combination? It's a mystery to me.

Rick

I tend to see it as Rick does. Yes, there is unquestionably the refractory period following ejaculation; it is hard for me to imagine any male not having it. However, knowing that it will happen, and later knowing that it happened, is certainly not a disappointment but a simple recognition of reality of what it is being male and ejaculating. For me, the "idea" of ejaculating is very exciting, and the "memories" of having ejaculated is also very exciting; so even thought I have that seemingly (at the moment only!) catastrophic crash that commences when the last ejaculatory spasm is spent and the last drop of my semen spurts or oozes out, I have disciplined myself to know down deep in my body that this is normal, this is male sexuality. Moreover, I get great pleasure knowing (even during refraction) that my partner has enjoyed my orgasm and ejaculation, and continues to enjoy my semen even after that wonderful substance is (for the next 10 or 15 minutes) of no particular interest to me personally. I look back on my past ejaculations, and look forward to my futures ones with a spirit of joy and gratitude for my male sexuality. I guess I'm one of those awful "positive" type people that always looks for the good in things.

Now that I've said that, I have also enjoyed bringing myself near to that awesome "point of no return," and by hook or crook, sustained myself at that high level of arousal, usually by serious breath control, a heavy dose of mental focus, and (yes, I admit it!) aggressive use of my PC muscle. I find that of the three, breath control is the most powerful "governor" of my arousal. I can dance around the edge of ejaculatory orgasm for quite an impressive amount of time. And while I make a conscious decision (usually) to proceed past the PONR and ejaculate, there have been many, many times when I allowed my arousal to subside and permitted my body to feel that pleasurable, lingering echo of having been "orgasmic" even during day to day events.

But now, thanks to Jack, and others, I have opened a new chapter in experiencing my sexual potential. I am as excited as a schoolboy at the prospect of being able to achieve an orgasm free from the burdens of "governors" of any kind, such as PC muscles, and labored breathing.

This thread is one I have heard in many different places and times from many other men. It is hard for me accept that my fellow males have such emotional difficulty is integrating the refractive flip-side of ejaculation into an overpowering love for ejaculating. I would encourage them not accept their present negative judgement as a final and unappealable decision, but to seek help and guidance in accepting this as a normal, healthy part of being orgasmic.

I hope it not politicall incorrect to "reply" to one's own reply, but these additional, postscriptive thoughts made their uninvited way into my cosnciousness while taking a shower after writing my earlier reply.

A wise teacher once told me: "Make the most of what comes and the least of what goes." This thought came to me years after it was first shared with me by my teacher, on the occasion of learning that I have a deteriorating eye problem. I could have gone into a funk over the gradual loss of vision in one eye, or on the other hand make a conscious decision to enjoy the rest of my life with all of the remaining opportunities to see things, and later to feel then, touch them, hear them, etc. You get the idea. Well, with sex and ejacualation, what comes (pun probably intended!) is very, very good; what goes (my semen, my arousal) goes quickly but ... what ... for 10 minutes? 15 munites? My body manfufactures semen at an incredible rate; my arousal returns very quickly, especially in the warm afterglow others have described. In the final analsis, what "comes" vastly outdistances what "goes" hands down.

On MMO generally, an old flight instructor once told me never to let myself "get behind the power curve," meaning that in flying your head has to be way in front of the airplane. The power of kinesthetic visualization is what distinguishes a great pilot from an average one. Well, with MMO, I suspect kinesthetic visualization may have an important part to play in successful MMO. In my very short time in practice with the key sound and valley breathing, I have already sensed the familiar, the kinesthetic visualization of my breath and my heart and my mind and my body flowing downwards in my body to my genitals where they are amplified and echoed in the resultant orgasmic feelings.

We may have acquire from Jack and the adepts a technique, but we can learn that technique with learning strategies that have stood us in good stead in every other part of our lives before, professionally, personally, emotionally. I don'f feel that I must give up what works for me, and I can learn in my own way to integrate my learning style with the techniques and protocols of MMO.

I enjoy making new friends, and especially when one of those new friends is myself reinvented suxually with these new insights into my male sexuality. I am grateful to Jack and the others who are so generous with their time and for their encouragement.