Gold Nugget - Male closeness - male intimacy - confronting envy of women's sexual capacity

OK, Its late at night. I am tired. And what better time to jump into some cultural time warps.

On 5/18/02 1:14:00 PM, lionheart wrote:
>Rodney and Justin,
>
>I get the feeling from some of
>your posts and a few others on
>the board that there are men
>on this board who are really
>confronting envy of women.
>Observing the loving
>interactions of women, it can
>be easy to feel left out, part
>of the uncaring half of
>society.
>
>Perhaps the real issue is one
>of choice about how we are as
>men? I don't feel that men
>should behave like women.


I have to agree with you there.


....> but I am also not
>afraid to step outside of the
>boundaries that are imposed.


That's a step I suspect that most of of the folks on this board have also taken.

>I recognize that with my male
>friends I am forbidden to have
>certain kinds of interaction,
>in large part by social rules
>that go largely unquestioned.
>As a member of US society I
>have reconciled myself to this
>fact of life.

I will try to be brief on this one Wish I could be.

While living in an African village, several decades ago, I learned that men danced with each other. There were traditional dances for men with men as well as dances for women with women. Initially, I was shocked to see the "hunters" perform their special dance, before the other "hunters."
This is not exclusive to West Africa, as you may know, in some Mediterranean countries there are traditional dances in which men dance with other men.
While taking a French freighter up the coast of West Africa I was even more surprised to observe young French men also dancing with each other. This was a western "civilized," "advanced", etc nation.
I may be very naive about this, but I don't believe that any of this same gender dancing is meant to be erotic.
It was awkward to be a young American and to be thrown into the midst of these cultural differences. I grasped for explanations. I did not dance theses dances. Big mistake??
Interpreting this behaviour from an American point of view - with all its blinders and handicaps - I would say, it was a social entertainment, and a defining of a "male bond."

In Ghana, where I worked, the men regularly hold hands. When walking to the village, while talking casually.
If a student stopped to ask me a question, he would first extend his hand, hold on to mine, and then begin to speak.
This was in no way sexual. However, it was emotionally "open." If I were first to withdraw from this "holding of hands" gesture, it would be extremely offensive in that tribe. It would mean I did not consider him a potential friend.
The Ewe are a tribe of several million. And the same practice is true of the Ashanti who numbered at the time 6 million.
So was a widespread practice.

In preparing an group of young Americans for these cultural differences, the Peace Corps
trained us to get used to holding hands, or else don't go over there.

Here's the curve ball. Over many months I became accustomed to this casual physical "intimacy." In fact, over a period of months I discovered that I could tell much about
my friends as they spoke. What were they excited about, nervous about, or withholding. Holding hands became a way of saying, Listen to what I am feeling. I have no secret from you. I withhold nothing -no thoughts no feeling - from you.

I think that at that stage it would be very difficult to hold someone's hand and have them tell them a lie, or withhold some of their feelings. I could feel it in my hand - the rise in temperature, the moisture, the
tensing in their muscles. It develops over time into of something like taking a polygraph test --- with an expert.

I also wonder if this helps to explain the etiology of the handshake. "Let's shake on that?" Translation: lets be open,
honest, and withhold no secrets from each other." This "hand shake," has evolved into such an abbreviated form only in the western world. In India folks not only grab your hand. At the same time, with their other hand they grab behind your elbow, so you can not let go from their grasp until they release you from their clasp.

Now cut to the curveball. I arrived at our one year Peace Corps anniversary held in a large, coastal, African city. Fellow Peace Corps friends and trainee had so many tales to tell. For one year we had not seen each other.
Individually and isolated from each other, we had discovered on our own so many new "traditions." New foods. That's another tale.
New friends. And new plans to discover more.
In the meantime, we had all become well accustomed to the native use of body space. We had become relaxed with holding hands with natives of the same gender. And did so with the natives who were also in attendance.

But we were all clearly uncomfortable holding hands with each other! And, we did not do so throughout the conference. Holding a white hand felt ... well, inappropriate, uncomfortable. Talk about deeply rooted cultural training - cultural prejudice?

As you said so well, Lionheart, you have reconciled yourself with the rules, paradigms and practices of the American culture.
Haven't we all. Perhaps as this tale reveals, at far more deeper levels than we yet imagine. And perhaps, blindly and perhaps to our detriment.


>Nor do I particularly envy the
>lot of women. I am glad I'm a
>guy,

Ditto on that one. I like the way I am "hard wired" inside
and out.
>

>I have not been suggesting
>that men and women should or
>do act the same; I am merely
>suggesting that at a deep
>biological level we are
>fundamentally the same, and
>that by accidents of birth,
>society, crude anatomical
>differences (the importance of
>which is constantly
>exaggerated), etc., we are
>lead away from what could be
>our birthright. I am saying
>that both sexes are free to
>tap into their human sexual
>potential equally deeply.


Well said Lionheart.


>What is "Masculinity"? What
>is "Masculine"? What is
>"Manliness"?
>
>In many cultures in the world
>men know who they are, what
>their position is, what it
>means to be a Man.

Initiation rites still exist throughout most of Africa. In our American culture I guess we try out for the football team, the basketball
team, or the computer club, etc. And what "initiation" is left for those who don't find their own team, club, or niche at the time of their initiation passage?


>I feel
>that I have only just started
>to grasp these things for
>myself. It was a personal
>search because in our society
>we lack benchmarks for what
>masculinity is.
>
>We lack coming-of-age
>ceremonies, rituals and
>procedures that signify to us
>in a symbolic way that we are
>Men. I think this contributes
>to a sense of not knowing who
>we are as men, leading to a
>feeling of "Am I really a
>Man?" Many behaviours in our
>society could be seen as
>attempts to prove this. The
>search which lead me to MMO
>was proof of a yearning for
>ownership of my masculinity.

The private journey - the aboriginal "walkabout" - is another great initiation. You appear to be creating your own
"walkabout."

>Of course, both
>sexes are railroaded strongly
>into socially-imposed ideas
>about what it means to be a
>man or a woman.
>
>.... I
>believe that increasingly, men
>will learn to claim their
>masculinity, their maleness
>and to realize what it means
>to be a Man.
>
>To truly come into one's
>potential as a human we must
>take control over our sexual
>selves, and face up to our
>emotional demons. We must
>accept things about ourselves
>that we aren't willing to
>accept and we must work on
>things that we are afraid to
>deal with. From these things
>we can become Men.
>
>lionheart
>
>purr like a cat ... roar like
>a lion


Lionheart, Keep purring and keep roaring. And stay curious.


I also hear what Justin is saying. From several years of first hand observation and immersion into another culture, I can
say that there appears to be a long tradition of non-sexual, male to male physical closeness, openness, and initiation
found within ancient and intact societies that is clearly absent within our local cultural paradigm.

The closest experience to that ancient openness and physical closeness which I have observed within an American culture context occurred - of all places - in an ambush patrol platoon in Vietnam. It
amazed me to see how under the circumstance of extreme duress and threat of loss of life, loss of friends, and willingness to help each other that young American boys went "native." In an ambush patrol you would spend about 10 days and nights in the bush. Then called the "jungle".
You eat and sleep within sight of our buddies. Just relieving yourself out of your buddy's' sight might cause a loss of life - as you would make an ideal target for a sniper.
With the exception of the locker room, Americans are just not brought up to be that physically close. Day and night.

At night you sleep on the ground surrounded within your hand's reach by an arc of grenades, claymore mines, ammo clips. You sleep within a mini ammo dump. And you also sleep within arms reach of your buddy on each side. If you make enemy contact, you must reach for your buddy, and he must be able to reach for you, in the dark, silently stealthily, without alerting the enemy.

There is no place to hide - not even emotionally. You get to know each person's breaking point. When the firefight starts, you know who will need help, and when. You get know who will be there when you need help. And who won't.
Most of the day conversations are whispered. Or spoken in low voice. At night conversation is forbidden, except for urgent matters, conducted in hushed voices.
In those moments when it is safe to chat, conversations run from bull shit to opening your heart to the deep pain of losing a close friend.
Over months of operation, you will get to know your buddies closer than you know your own brother -- emotionally, spiritually, physically. We became "brothers-in - arms." I cared deeply about my buddies. They felt the same for me. And proved it on the line. In our culture, that relationship is labeled "male bonding."

Whatever you call it. It is knowing another human being better than you know your siblings. That is the closest experience I have had - within an American cultural context - to the male closeness which non western cultures still preserve in their initiations, rituals, and everyday use of body language and body space.


Now substitute "hunter gatherer" for ambush patrol. Within that context we might begin to perceive how male to male behaviour has evolved from the hunt for the "big game", to the ritualized dancing before other men in intact cultures, to the holding of hands in ancient cultures, to keeping oneself generally open, honest and withholding no secret feelings from each other.

Quite different from female to female bonding? Does this model begin to highlight our masculine strengths? I have seen male envy of women expressed on the board. And women do create their unique type of bonding.

But, I am guessing that we do have to build upon our genetic heritage, our genetic strengths, to reach a full relationship with a woman.
In my opinion, we are genetically geared to open up, to not withhold, to explore, to take risk, and also to nurture -- in our own way to other's emotional needs.

There seems to be a long tradition of such genetic behavior expressed in the above, long winded, multi cultural, observations.

Good night,
Rodney

I just wanted to bump this thread, as I think it is very important. I too have felt that envy for the way women interact with eachother. It's like their relationships are generally more genuine and they are free to touch each other in any way and not be seen as abnormal, while ours are very superficial and we are basically forbidden from anything other than a light touch unless we are tackling eachother(Maybe that's why some of us like to play football). People say women are more emotional, but I/m not so sure about that. Maybe they just express them more freely.

And one question:
Where did the original post come from?

I agree wholeheartedly! It shows what a tremendous loss we experience by being subjected to gender-based bias and culturally-imposed constraints on behavior that are arbitrarily based on that gender bias.

BTW, I also believe that that sense of loss, whether or not we are consciously aware of it stimulates a form of grief that may adversely color all of our interactions with other men, and mutually reinforces a certain sense of social isolation that is needless.

It is one of the reasons I first created this Forum over a decade ago - to help dissolve those arbitrarily inappropriate social sanctions.

This all gets heavily amped by a strong dose of homophobia, and the resultant counterphobic abuses imho serve to reinforce authoritarian militarism in our culture.

I sincerely applaud your courage in giving voice to the loss of greater potential intimacy you suffer as a result.

And I personally feel compelled as a result of those same constraints to clarify here that when I used the term intimacy I did not mean sexual intimacy, but (as I assume did you) simply a more authentic, warmer, and more supportive interpersonal intimacy quite appropriate among male friends who have no sexual relationship or agenda with each other.

In general, I agree with you, and at the same time I urge you to seek out or even create safe situations where by mutual negotiation and agreement with other men you will become more free to be more expressive in the ways you describe.

Although due to the constraints of this web-based medium we are denied physical contact, I nevertheless hope that in this Forum you will feel safer in reaching out in a more intimate way to other men.

I consider your statements here to be just such a reaching out, and I hope that you will consider this venue to be a safer place for exploring greater emotional intimacy here.

As you continue to read the dialogues between men here, as well as between men and women here, I hope you will feel encouraged by our commitment to that very kind of openness, and our intolerance of teasing, bullying etc. as being inappropriate and not permitted.

I agree, and that is very sad.

At the same time, it's important to remember that men as well as women may suffer from the effects of past abuse, both physical and emotional, so it's important for us to be sensitive to negotiating those kinds of relationships in an honest and open way.

I recommend you use this Forum's search tool to search on the keywords boundary boundaries and the keyphrase: "share check share" for more detailed discussions on these issues.

ALSO: Please check out Chat 0038 - not only for a detailed description of how I discovered the Key Sound™ and developed the Multiple Orgasm Trigger Protocol™...

but also......For an in-depth discussion of this very issue of the social and personal costs of gender biased cultural sanctions against appropriate expressions of intimacy.

Please note that this chat was held in the very early days of this Forum, so I hope you will appreciate just how deeply aware of this issue I have been from the beginning, and how committed I am to using this Forum, and the teaching of the Multiple Orgasm Trigger Protocol™ as at least a partial remedy.

I agree, and in fact I am very sure that that is not the case!

Some do, but others may not... for reasons due to an abusive past history, or just by personal preference. I believe that that too is important to keep in mind.

Thanks again for your openness and I hope you feel welcome here!

Forum Users Tip: Bredelly, I found the answer to your question about where did the original post come from by doing the following:

• I scanned the text of lionheart's quoted post for a phrase that would have a high probability of being fairly rare.
• Upon scanning like that, I found a what I thought was a pretty good candidate, when lionheart said: we lack benchmarks for what
• Next, I selected and then copied that text string to my clipboard, using Control+C.
• Then I clicked on the Search link on the blue horizontal menu bar,
• I pasted the clipboard contents of that string into the Search form field, surrounded by quotes like this:
  
  
  "we lack benchmarks for what"
  
  
• And clicked the button labeled Search using Google™ Site Search.
• I got a list with only two entries on it - confirming that I'd picked phrase from lionheart's quoted post that seemed to be rare, if not unique.
• I recognized that the first link on the list was to the post I was already reading - from which I grabbed that quoted phrase, so I...
• ...Clicked the second link on the list and VOILA! There was lionheart's original post!

Wishing you all the very best of your heart's desire...
Jack

BREDELLY

That quote came from an ongoing series of conversations between Lionheart, Rodney, and Justin. You might want to search those names.

It appears that the topic is timely, or timeless ? - as it received many hits over the years on the old forum.

Were you not open and casual about touching when you were a child? Young males touch each other, and fall all over each other, a lot in their everyday play.
So, somewhere along the line, did this openness to male touch, get hammered out of you?

Have you traveled overseas? European males seem less uptight than American males about physical closeness. I am not referring to sexual closeness by the way. Also, naturism - social nudity among males and females - is much more common in Europe, and apparently less tainted by the Anglo-Puritan revulsion against the physical, human body.

Have you traveled a step further, outside the western orbit? Male rituals of touching and socializing seem much more "traditional." Generally males are very comfortable in close physical contact with their friends, as well as with new strangers. In fact, one of the first "body language" signs of welcoming to a stranger often involves some sort of gesture which ultimately brings you into their close physical space.

Just my guess, this casual acceptance of physical closeness, probably parallels a casual acceptance of emotional closeness.

There is a newer angle on this subject. Anthropologists say that the modern male evolved from an ancient hunter gatherer. Indeed, some anthropologists claim we may have acquired hunter gatherer and tool making skills millions of years before evolving into the human species. Tools pre-dating the modern man, and large animal bones found at these sites, strongly suggest that pre-human species communicated and co-operated extremely well together.

Recent neurology studies have shown that the male brain navigates quite differently than the female. Females employ a part of the brain - prefrontal cortex - that focuses in on "local" details. Turn left at the fire house. right at the Oak tree. Ancient females foraged in a local area.

Males employ a different part of the brain - the left hippocampus - and navigate by using landmark and geometric cues enabling them to navigate unmarked deserts and unchartered territory.

So we are hardwired by millions of years of genetic history to navigate unchartered territory. Think about that.

Do you really suppose that small groups of hunter gatherers set out into uncharted territory, to hunt large/or dangerous animals - which alone not one hunter would want to take on -- and remain physically as well as emotionally aloof from each other throughout their long journey?

What stories did they share at night - around the fire? What strategies did they re-work? What humor did they employ to express the risk taking? What humor did they employ to express the surprises of the hunt?
During the day, if you strayed far from the hunting party you might not make it back alone.

Suppose you did not co-operate in the planning and execution, suppose you did not share the risk and rewards, and suppose you did not support your fellow gatherers emotionally. Might you eventually get left behind -- or be outcast?

Look at the profound scientific evidence. Contrary to so much male bashing in the public media, I believe every male carries within a powerful genetic history aimed at strategic cooperation, communication, tool building and tool sharing. And skilled males are expected to train the young males in all of these learned skills.

In todays world, I think this genetic expression shows up in various types of partnerships, ranging from the mega-business entities such as Bill Gates and his middle school buddy founded [ and notice that they chose to stay at the edge of the uncharted territory long after material success was gained ], right down to the partnerships found in the local basketball or wrestling teams. [ Which often is the edge of the unchartered territory for a young, growing male. ]
If, as you say, males in American society can only touch on the football field- I say don't bash it. I believe male love of sports is an integral derivative of a much broader and much richer genetic heritage.

I also agree with you. American males should not be channeled by a repressive, Anglo-puritan culture into choosing from among just a narrow handful of culturally acceptable behaviors - cultural behavior that strip males from finding emotional contact and meaning.

Cultural repression must be taken seriously. Yes, American males now pay a steep price in personal, emotional damage.

But if repression becomes even more extreme, we will all pay a much more horrible price.

Consider the extremely narrow choices which even more heavily repressed cultures give their males. Cultures where men are only allowed narrowly limited emotional relationships with men or women. These extremely repressive cultures produce globally enraged males. Males willing - and wanting - to lash out against any man, woman or child to make their point, and to horrify others.

Is it easier to take the life of an innocent female bystander if your emotional relationships with all women is barren of meaning? Lacking in rich emotional relationships?
Emotionally repressed jihadists readily lash out brother against brother, clan against clan, neighbor against neighbor, country against country, religion against religion, across the globe, and across a multitude of cultures and ethnic groups.

Repression works in degrees - along a spectrum of behavior. A little repression can make you sick. A lot of repression can turn you evil.

Considering the horrific societal consequences of all forms of emotional repression, I believe American males need to resist the many, and insidious cultural attempts to repress their emotional needs.

I believe American males need to re-claim and express so much more of their deep, vast and adventurous genetic heritage.
A heritage that is profoundly richer in physical, emotional, as well as intellectual expression.

KSMO may help to point the way. We know that KSMO awakens a specific, orgasmic genetic expression. I wonder if KSMO also awakens some other forms of genetic expression ? ...

Our long journey begins with the first step.

Take care,

Redneck

*BOOKMARK*

Wow, what an amazing conversation and a fascinating subject! I have been wanting to learn more about these particular issues, especially inferences from tribal societies and initiation. Any recommended reading for more insight into this fascinating and, imo, important subject?

__________________
~Airn

Maybe instead of the practice we should call it the hobby. After all, practice implies work, and a hobby is what you love, right? :-)

I agree with Airn. What an amazing conversation and subject! It's only 10am and I've already learned something today! One comment that really struck a chord with me was the following:

"We lack coming-of-age ceremonies, rituals and procedures that signify to us in a symbolic way that we are Men. I think this contributes to a sense of not knowing who we are as men, leading to a feeling of "Am I really a Man?" Many behaviours in our society could be seen as attempts to prove this."

I am struck by the fact of the truth in this statement. How much have we been robbed of this in our society? We do need, I need, an event/ milestone whereby we can look back and say, "Yes I am a MAN." We need that "Hoorah," that sense of manly tenacity put back in us! No wonder so many men don't know who they are and why so many men have the stereotypical 'mid-life crisis.'

There's a great book called "Wild At Heart" by John Eldridge that talks about being a man. It talks about how men try to 'validate' themselves by being macho, having numerous women conquests, buying the bigger boat etc. and it goes on to describe what every man needs: "A battle to fight, an adventure to live and a beauty to rescue."

I am completely dumbfounded and in an almost state of shock as I write this thread. Through this thread and the quote above I have realized, just now, what I have been missing; why I have gone skydiving, why I want to join the army or backpack through South America. I know now why I have kind of "floundered" through life. My father never taught me to be a man, never took me through that 'right of passage' into manhood. Wow! What an amazing thing for a father and son to share with each other! Thank you all for this great conversation and the Truth that has awakened in me! Hua!