• zeitgeist, layroth, Ivanhoe, stoki, Lava, dman, hlaser99, and Drew join Jack for a discussion of Echo Effects, Intimacy issues, heartgasms, multiple orgasms, meditation, abuse and counseling, and other issues related to the KSMO protocol.
• newbie Ivanhoe reports very strong Echo Effects to the point of shaking which caused concern. He practices in the evening and Jack suggests experimenting with practicing at different times and letting the Echo Effects guide him to the best times.
  Jack suggests that Ivanhoe record his experiences in the Forum and Orgasm Wiki.
• Ivanhoe discusses with the group intimacy issues with his Father and receives confirmation that opening the heart is key to progressing in his practice.
• newbie stoki has had the program for a month and gone through one session. He feels that his chest did not vibrate enough. Jack goes over the calibration technique for this from his second audio seminar. Stoki reports a tingle but is unsure of the meaning. Jack explains that early Echo Effects tend to be faint and not particularly erotic in the beginning. Jack says that the Effects should be allowed to grow through the use of the Key Sound and gentle caress instead of trying to force them.
• stoki reports feeling an envy of female multiple orgasm since his is over in one squirt. Lava comments that multiple orgasms are not universal among women. Jack responds that stoki is confusing ejaculation with orgasm and that with the Multiple Orgasm Protocol he can experience multiple orgasms.
• zeitgeist, who has been practicing for 10 months describes Echo Effects and awareness increasing over time. A discussion follows on the Protocol's ability to unlock the inner potential that is already present.
• newbie dman follows next with a question regarding hand clenching and lip pursing during practice. Jack suggests taking additional relaxing breaths between Key Sounds.
• dman inquires about ejaculation on days between practice. Jack suggests a mixture of some days ejaculating some days not and letting the responses guide him.
• dman reports that he feels more Echo Effects by making the Key Sound without the sound. Jack suggests going with that for now and later when he opens more reintroduce the sound.
• dman asks about continuing a session for longer than 20 minutes as called for in the Protocol. Jack tells him to experiment to find what is best for him. A discussion follows on meditation and spirituality as it relates to the practice.
• Laly and lava share their experiences with various forms of sexual abuse and counseling to recover.

Session Start: Sat Dec 09 12:01:17 2006
zeitgeist> hi jack!
Laly> hi dman, and ivanhoe
Jack> Hello everyone!
zeitgeist> hi laser!
Ivanhoe: hi everyone
dman> hey laly, and laser, good to see you again.
zeitgeist> hi dman!
Jack> You too, dman!
dman> hey zeitgeist.
dman>
Jack> And WELCOME Ivanhoe!
hlaser99> Hey
Laly> hi hlaser HUGSS
Ivanhoe> thank you, jack. I feel like you're all longtime friends
hlaser99> Hey Z and all
zeitgeist> :-)
hlaser99> Hi laly
zeitgeist> welcome 2 u too Ivanhoe!
Jack> We are, Ivanhoe, and you're very welcome to join our discussion!
Laly> ivanhoe- for me , you all are my 2nd family
Jack> :-)
Ivanhoe> don't let me spoil the party though, I'm just a total newbie to this
curious for info
Jack> What are your questions, Ivanhoe?
Ivanhoe> actually, I think maybe I should be the fly on the wall a little. I
haven't been that good of a student since I picked up your program some
time back
Ivanhoe> I'm more familiar with Tantric techniques...
Jack> Imho, the Multiple Orgasm Trigger integrates very well with Tantric
practice.
Jack> Also, to whatever extent you feel comfortable in a public forum such
as this, would you share some details such as age, where you live generally,
marital status if you like, orientation, etc. all optional of course!
Ivanhoe> sure! 28 years old, single male from Norway. that's me
Jack> Wonderful! Wilkommen or the Norse variant! :-)
Ivanhoe> so I've understood jack, I found reference to your method on a
Tantric forum
Jack> Do you recall which one?
Ivanhoe> that's German. We say "Velkommen"
Jack> Velkommen!
Ivanhoe> yeah, it was Yogani's forum if you know it? he does excellent work
Ivanhoe> I was very inspired to read his book
Ivanhoe> and thanks for the warm welcome :-)
Jack> Do you have a URL?
Laly> ?
Jack> You are welcome for the welcome LOL!
Ivanhoe> http://www.aypsite.org/
Laly> awesome , thanks
Ivanhoe> my pleasure
Jack> Do you remember the topic name of the discussion where folks were
talking about the Key Sound Multiple Orgasm Trigger?
Jack> Or that URL?
Jack> I'd like to offer to answer any other questions they may have.
Ivanhoe> I think there are several. I propose you google "Key Sound
site:aypsite.org"
Jack> Will do, thanks! Ok... what are YOUR questions? :-)
Ivanhoe> hmmm, as I said, not too familiar with the technique. I tried it for
a few weeks a couple of months back, but felt I didn't really get the hang of it
Ivanhoe> I've had kundalinic shivers travel up my spine as part of my
everyday experience for about a year now and the Key Sound method just
made spastic
Jack> Ivanhoe, the MOST COMMON ERROR is to overlook the initial subtle
responses, and to label them as nothing or not enough .
Ivanhoe> yes I heard that being said
Ivanhoe> you know, my signals were just so heavy though - just with
normal deep breathing, I start shaking big time
Ivanhoe> and it kind of blocked all the rest
Jack> What time of day/night did you practice?
Ivanhoe> normally late in the evening
Jack> Welcome back Lava! We're talking with newbie Ivanhoe from Norway!
Lava> Hey! I finally made it here. WOO-HOO!
Jack> YEAH!
Laly> hi lava!!!
Lava> Hey, chic!
Ivanhoe> hi lava, I would be the newbie. pleased to meet you.
Lava> Hey, Ivanhoe! And everyone. I'm so glad to be here and bask in your
great knowledge!
Jack> Ivanhoe, re: late in the evening... that would be the first thing I
recommend you alter - to a time
Jack> of day when you have more energy available, and less fatigue.
Ivanhoe> I've thought about that. by the time I get back from work though,
it's already late and I feel tired
Jack> How about on a day that you don't work?
Ivanhoe> weekends?
Jack> If those are your days off :-)
Ivanhoe> aye
Laly> I agree with Jack- based on my own personal late nite foray into
KS orgasms, ivanhoe.
Jack> Please say more, Laly.
Ivanhoe> yes, please
Laly> umm... well
Laly> I have done a few practices around 10 pm or so at nite
Laly> just for the fact that the Echo Effects were really strong
Ivanhoe> you mean the Echo Effects were stronger late in the evening?
Laly> and the energy the KS multiple orgasms I experienced
Laly> I am more aware of them at that time
Lava> I agree with the late-night thing... When I get home from a rehearsal
or stop working, I'm too exhausted to try.
Lava> :-)
Laly> anyhow- as a result I was up til 5:30 am
Laly> from the intense KS energy it produced.
Lava> Laly, do you think you are more aware of them at that time because
the house is quiet?
Lava> or there's a general calm then?
Laly> house is quiet BUT also my mind is quiet too lava
Laly> was always the _OH I got to do this, and this , and that
Laly>lol.
Lava> yeah, if the mind isn't ready, there's no use trying... the body will not
follow.
Jack> That is for SURE Lava!
Jack> Ivanhoe, since the Key Sound practice is energizing, it's a good idea
to explore how it may be different for you to practice at least once a week,
earlier in the day.
Laly> yes.
Ivanhoe> I'm a little confused. It seemed that jack's view was that evening
practice maybe wasn't the best idea for me, but you ladyroth seem to suggest
it's stronger at that time?
Laly> Ivanhoe- let me clarify that okay
Ivanhoe> thanks
Laly> I feel the Echos all day long
Laly> but I however so NOT act upon them until
Laly> later
Laly> like from 7-9 pm , but no later than that.
Ivanhoe> act on them as in practicing the KS method?
Laly> yes.
Ivanhoe> and this is what you found works best for you?
Laly> yes, after much practice and trial and error
Ivanhoe> so is this highly individual?
Laly> in fact, last nite I had one of the BEST sessions ever - in the past
10 month hiatus I was on
Laly> yes ivanhoe- very individual.
Lava> follow your own body rhythms... what works for one person may not
work for you.
Jack> I agree with Laly that it's important to explore alternative times, etc.
to find the best times for yourself. Also note that these may change - even
within a week.
Ivanhoe> how would it work to practice twice a week, Saturday and Sunday?
Jack> RE: Highly Individual - I really agree with that! That is why I suggest
that you let your Echo Effects be your primary teacher.
Laly> 99% of my sessions occur right in my chair, as where before they
used to occur while laying on the floor.
Jack> Ivanhoe... How about you start with Saturday and leave Sunday open
for the Echo Effects to appear on their own?
hlaser99> For me it's best in the a.m. with my coffee, in my chair!
Ivanhoe> please explain the last part of that sentence?
Jack> Then during the week, if/when possible, try a session maybe a little
sooner after getting home from work - if possible.
Jack> My underlying message Ivanhoe, is when you're not getting the
results you want - first check in here, which you did! :-) And then also start
making SLIGHT changes in your practice pattern,
Ivanhoe> it should be, it's always about priorities. I just need to get the
feeling that I'm progressing to give me motivation
Jack> such as a different time of day, etc.
Ivanhoe> yeah. Could I bother you with a quick explanation of what I see as
my main challenge?
Jack> Ivanhoe, re: needing to get the feeling - I'm afraid I must caution you
that particular frame may be a version of chasing the fawn.
Lava> Keep a journal... Then you can go back and see what you did when it
worked and what you did when it didn't...
Jack> GREAT idea Lava!
dman> Sorry to interrupt, but I've got to run. If you're still here when I get
back in and hour or two, I'll try to rejoin you.
Jack> And for the stuff you're ok sharing under a pseudonym in a public
Forum, use our discussion Forum and OrgasmWiki to blog your experiences
as well.
Laly> that;s what I do too lava- in the WIKI website
Ivanhoe> I did that for a while with the Tantric practice. It's good advice
Jack> Yeah dman. Next time let us know right away when you have a time
constraint! :-)
Lava> Bye, dman!
Ivanhoe> bye dman
dman> Will do, Jack. See ya!
hlaser99> Me too!
Jack> Me too bye, or you have a time constraint, or?
Jack> That was to hlaser99.
hlaser99> I have to leave in a little while for a dinner party, but I wanted to
pop on and say Hi before I leave...
Laly>TAKE CARE HLASER hugsss
Jack> Let's get to you in just a sec then hlaser, ok?
hlaser99> U2 Laly
hlaser99> ok
Jack> Thanks. Just want to wrap up this segment with Ivanhoe.
hlaser99> Don't really have an issue today tho?
Ivanhoe> thanks, jack
Jack> You're welcome! Ivanhoe, did you see my comment about needing to
feel progress to be motivated?
Ivanhoe> yeah
Ivanhoe> I know you're right
Jack> It's a GREAT teaching example of chasing the fawn syndrome! Thanks
for helping teach that! :-)
Laly> be patient with yourself above all else ivanhoe.
Jack> It's such a SUBTLE VERSION of that pattern.
Jack> PLEASE understand that in identifying a pattern such as this, there is
NO BLAME.
Ivanhoe> mhm
Jack> Actually, I find it exciting. That kind of awareness can be exciting.
Jack> Ivanhoe, are you familiar with the concept of Beginner's Mind ?
Ivanhoe> My basic question is this though. As I have strong Echo Effects
throughout the day due to meditation and Tantric practice, the KS method just
seems to be more of the same. There's just a lot more shaking for me. But a
couple of times I've had a slight tingling sensation at the perineum. And
somehow it seems to be working better when I focus on opening the heart.
Ivanhoe> yeah, I'm a practicing Buddhist :-)
Ivanhoe> the question - how do I tune into the subtle when there's the
gross shaking?
Jack> That makes sense that it seems to be working better when you focus
on opening the heart.
Ivanhoe> it seems to get in the way
Jack> Are you continuing to use the Key Sound when the shaking becomes
intense?
Ivanhoe> yeah, there seems to be an increase of warmth that comes with
success in these methods. That works better when I let energy through my
heart
Ivanhoe> yes jack, I shake all the time. breathing deeply makes me do that
Jack> MOST DEFINITELY re: Heart being a very important part of the path.
Laly> _6,0if I may make a suggestion jack?
Ivanhoe> it seems that the sexual energy doesn't circulate and move freely
when the heart is not open
Jack> I COMPLETELY AGREE.
Ivanhoe> and that may cause the shaking I've thought
Ivanhoe> inner friction
Jack> Search the keyword Heartgasm in our Forum for more discussion on
that!
Ivanhoe> I will
Laly>oh yeah- you'll see me there ivanhoe :-) .
Jack> Great! Inner friction struck a resonant note, when I saw it, Ivanhoe.
Jack> It sounds like you're finding the key though - through your heart.
Ivanhoe> cool laly. jack - yeah?
Ivanhoe> it feels like it
Jack> What's it about? (To the extent you feel ok sharing with us, as
ALWAYS).
* Laly hugs everyone cause she has to go back to work
Ivanhoe> there's a lot of vulnerability here as well - it feels there's a certain
therapeutic element
Jack> bye Laly ttyl! HUGS!
Lava> bye Laly!!!
Ivanhoe> bye laly!
zeitgeist> cu laly huggs
Laly> thanks
hlaser99> Bye Laly!
Laly> *sniffles
Jack> Very definitely re: vulnerability, Ivanhoe! You're hot on the trail!
hlaser99> I gotta get grounded and go to a party now!
Ivanhoe> yeah, that's not a problem jack. I'm a pretty open guy.
Ivanhoe> bye laser
Jack> Laser any quick comments b4 you go?
hlaser99> No I'm feelin' great & doin' great!
Jack> Everybody check out laser's blog in the OrgasmWiki. Laser do you
have a URL for that you could pop up here b4 you go?
hlaser99> I'll catch you all next chat!
Jack> I'm very glad to hear things are going so well! OK and see you in the
Forum and the OrgasmWiki!
Lava> Bye, HLaser!
hlaser99> Bye!
hlaser99> Bye All!
Ivanhoe> bye!
Ivanhoe> back to the issue of the heart?
zeitgeist> http://www.multiples.com/orgasmwiki/User_talk:Hlaser
Jack> Yes please, if ok with you.
Jack> Thanks Z for the link to hlaser's talk area!
Ivanhoe> absolutely. I'm here to learn
zeitgeist> GREAT attitude...
Jack> Please continue.
Jack> YES INDEED!
Jack> That is GREAT Beginner's Mind - Coming to practice with Empty Cup.
Ivanhoe> basically, sexuality never came easy for me and it caused me a lot
of problems before I decided I had to do something
Ivanhoe> the household situation that I grew up in led to a certain anxiety
about intimacy
Ivanhoe> my parents never once told me they loved me, so expressing love
for me became difficult
Jack> I'm really sorry to hear that.
Ivanhoe> and sexuality put me face to face with my issues surrounding love
Ivanhoe> thanks, jack
Jack> I REALLY APPLAUD YOUR EMOTIONAL COURAGE Ivanhoe!!!
zeitgeist> AMEN!
Jack> AND your EMOTIONAL HONESTY!
zeitgeist> Well done!
Ivanhoe> heh, I just shed a tear actually
Lava> Good for you!
Jack> That's a good opening!
zeitgeist> absolutely!
Jack> Take a moment and breathe...
Jack> Let yourself feel, Ivanhoe.
Lava> Accept the tear(s) as a release... when you let go of one thing you
make room for something else...
Jack> TOTALLY EXCELLENT POINT LAVA!!!
Jack> imho :-)
Ivanhoe> so I've been through years of practice, meditation, therapy
(therapy was SO important)
Jack> yes it set the stage... pls continue...
Lava> I was 22 before my father hugged me, so I understand, Ivanhoe.
Jack> Thanks for offering that, Lava. Way to go.
Ivanhoe> and I feel so strong now you know. spiritually, emotionally. yet
sexually, I'm still not whole
zeitgeist> ...yet.
Ivanhoe> and that's why I'm here I guess
Jack> yep.
Ivanhoe> thanks, lava
Jack> I think that's why most if not all of us are here, Ivanhoe.
Ivanhoe> by the way, I confronted my father about my struggles growing
up. my relationship to my parents is healed
Jack> You're in good company, if I may say.
Jack> WOW!!!
Ivanhoe>
Ivanhoe> yeah, it was a tough one Jack. I cried like a baby. Didn't feel very
manly!
Ivanhoe> and he's still in self-reflection mode
Jack> You ARE INDEED COURAGEOUS - WOW!
Lava> don't think of yourself as not whole, Ivanhoe... think of it as you had
to get squared away spiritually, first, then emotionally, and now it's your
sexuality's turn to get in tune with the rest of you.
Jack> It is VERY MANLY to show such emotional COURAGE.
zeitgeist> I agree it is very manly..
Ivanhoe> YES lava, that's how I feel too
Jack> Yeah, I really resonate to what you said as well, Lava, thanks.
Ivanhoe> yeah, I don't worry about the tears. It was just to sit through that
with my dad
Ivanhoe> strange to
Lava> And speaking from personal experience, don't let your father's
emotional shortcomings set you back.
Jack> VERY COURAGEOUS!
Jack> AMEN, Lava!
Lava> Those are HIS problems, NOT YOURS!!! {:-)
Lava> I think you're doing a great job, Ivanhoe.
Ivanhoe> I know Lava. I've given him my hand and my heart now. If he
doesn't accept the invitation, which I think he will, I say fuck it and move on
Lava> HAHA! Right on!
Jack> Yeah when you said he's doing some self-reflection - that sounded
pretty positive.
Jack> Just imagine the cultural baggage about men don't show emotions he
must be carrying.
Ivanhoe> it is. we're closer by the day
Jack> WONDERFUL!
Lava> I have to remember the time in which my father grew up---World
War 2... men back then would rather take a bullet to the knee than express an
emotion.
Jack> More Heart Opening!
Ivanhoe> oh yeah. he's such an emotional guy. some of my most vivid
childhood memories are the strange sounds he made when he tried to hold
back tears
Lava> Ivanhoe, YOU are giving your father the skills he needs to become
whole. Sounds to me like you're going about it the right way.
Jack> Yeah and with the rampant militarism today, there's a lot of that act-
don't-feel in the current cultural mix.
Ivanhoe> yeah, a man can't be a real man until he has integrated the female
part of himself in my opinion
Lava> I was writing a post (when I remembered the Chat!) about dealing
with PTSD and furballs... this is right up that alley.
Jack> Ivanhoe, I don't know if you've heard this expression - The child is
father to the man. This is a good example of it I think.
Ivanhoe>
Lava> Every person is male and female, we all have testosterone AND
estrogen.
Ivanhoe> you know, I haven't engaged in sexual activity for several years.
I've held back. But now I'm ready to take junior for a walk again. A little
intimidating
Lava> You can't deny who and what you are on that basic level.
Jack> Yes another shocking truth for some! Ivanhoe, would you give us a
wee summary of what's new for you today?
Ivanhoe> what do you mean?
Jack> What you've learned through our discussion,
Jack> how it may affect the way you are approaching practice.
Ivanhoe> ah
Jack> LOL. :-)
Ivanhoe> well, I've had confirmation that my heart opening is a key step in
this process
Jack> Yes and that's an insight YOU taught yourself!
Ivanhoe> I think that's the most important thing. And Lava was spot on with
his(?) description of integrating spiritually, emotionally and sexually
Lava> her
Lava> :-)
Ivanhoe> I've done the first two and am about to wrap up the last
Ivanhoe> ooops sorry lava
Ivanhoe> please forgive me ;-)
Lava> no prob. {:-)
Jack> Well Ivanhoe, I don't know about wrapping up the last - maybe more
like opening the first of many (fractal!) gateways... for you to consider
anyway. :-)
Ivanhoe> as for the day to day reality of practicing the KS method, I guess I
will spend some more time around you guys, on the forums and stuff
Ivanhoe> and then set off time for a minimum of one, hopefully two, weekly
sessions
Jack> Sounds great!
Ivanhoe> jack, you're totally right. silly wording on my part
Jack> meanwhile keep calmposting those emotional furballs. :-)
Lava> Jack has done a great job of explaining the foibles of the
McOrgasm... So, Ivanhoe, allow yourself to integrate at your own speed...
There's no pre-packaged Happy Meal here.
Jack> ROFL!
Ivanhoe> McOrgasm? HAHAHAHA
Ivanhoe> you want go-large?
zeitgeist> :-)
Lava> HAHA
Lava> super size
Jack> yep, that's what I call our cultural impetus to GO FOR IT .
Lava> (sorry... )
Ivanhoe> oh, I won't hold it against you lava
Jack> a lot of times people show up here looking for a magic pill.
Ivanhoe> yeah, I bet
Lava> Yeah, like losing weight, people want the results not the journey.
Jack> WELL SAID.
zeitgeist> VERY well said...
Ivanhoe> someone said that "so many people don't want the truth, they just
want to feel good"
Ivanhoe> and when it's not instant, try something else
Jack> Yeah and many people believe that you can only have one or the
other.
Ivanhoe> true!
Ivanhoe> lunacy!
Jack> To me, this practice is the ULTIMATE communication from the very
depths of our being that our deepest truth CAN feel good REALLY good!
Ivanhoe> a toast to that
zeitgeist> from that wellspring...
Jack> The rest is about burning up the karma - the furballs - the wounds
we've dragged along behind us through a culture that has given too few
opportunities to heal them.
Ivanhoe> it's getting better though, don't you think?
Ivanhoe> culture I mean....
Jack> Well I think our little corner of it is. And there are other signs too.
Ivanhoe> back here, something big seems to be opening up
Lava> When the Dems win the White House, it will get even better. {:-)
Jack> Well we try not talk specific politics here to keep the tent really big
- :-)
Ivanhoe> hopefully they can sort out their inner conflicts
Lava> Seriously, though, there is a shift going on in many, many ways on
many levels.
Ivanhoe> ok jack
Jack> Yes. And one of my main goals for doing this since 1993 has been to
use this path to help open people up enough to energize that change - from
the INside out!
Lava> A real awakening is going on everywhere.
Ivanhoe> yes!
Ivanhoe> and a mature relationship to sexuality is a HUGE part of that
change
Jack> Yeah... and the Multiple Orgasm Trigger practice is imho a
fundamental component of that awakening - from the very foundations of
our being.
Ivanhoe> so thanks for doing your good work, Jack
Lava> Involving the feminine instead of dominating her will be a HUGE part
of that, too.
Ivanhoe> lava, hell yeah!
Jack> You're welcome, Ivanhoe, and thanks for doing YOUR good work! :-)
Ivanhoe> thank you
Lava> feminine as in the female and the feminine that resides within the
male.
Ivanhoe> I'm lovin' it
zeitgeist> very yin and yang!
Jack> That's why I like yin and yang.
zeitgeist> snap!
Jack> omg Z, on the same wavelength - snap indeed!
Ivanhoe>
Jack> This practice definitely shows the power of the YIN in accessing the
YANG.
Lava> Any advice on opening the heart if you're not Buddhist? I do yoga, so
I'm familiar with opening Chakras. Similar?
Jack> Going for it is YANG - ALLOWING it is YIN.
Lava> Or is this a Search the Wiki thing?
Ivanhoe> lava, the best practice I know is called tonglen
Jack> No let's address it Lava.
Ivanhoe> it's a Tibetan method, but can be practiced by anyone anywhere
with no relation to Buddhism
Jack> you saying that tonglen has worked well for you Ivanhoe?
Jack> Gotta URL?
Ivanhoe> yes, it has worked very well, together with more exclusively
Buddhist methods like chenrezig practice. But I don't mean to proselytize
Jack> Ivanhoe and Zeitgeist (time check for you, mate!) is it ok if we pass
the Talking Stick to Lava next?
Ivanhoe> http://www.shambhala.org/teachers/pema/tonglen1.php
Jack> Welcome newbie stokie!
Jack> Thanks Ivanhoe for that URL!
zeitgeist> no prob with me...
Ivanhoe> you're welcome
stoki> Hi!
zeitgeist> hi stokie!
stoki> Sorry I'm late.
Ivanhoe> yeah, I've had more than enough attention, jack. I'm very grateful
Lava> Confession time>> I have purposely held off on trying the exact
KSMO because I am trying to deal with furballs first. When I listen to the
Audio (of Jack) and when I listen to the Ecstacy CD to just meditate, I can feel
the ripples of heat and "want"... But I don't want to practice yet.
Jack> We're just getting ready to pass the Talking Stick to Lava (if ok, by
zeitgeist's time zone)
Jack> Lava - TRUST THAT!
Jack> What's the nearest big city to where you live?
Ivanhoe> wow, I totally relate to what you just said
Jack> What part, Ivanhoe?
Lava> With my experience with yoga and "alternate" spirituality (Irish), I
KNOW your stuff will work Jack.
Lava> But, I'm working it the reverse method... Actually, I was writing a post
about it, but upon reading it, it sound stupid. {:-)
Ivanhoe> wanting to deal with furballs, listening to the Ecstacy CD and feel
heat ripples. It's me in a nutshell
Lava> My nearest big city?
Jack> Please don't trash yourself for your writing Lava!
Lava> That would be the mold-indested formerly fabulous city of New
Orleans. I live in Mississippi (where Katrina hit... which is a huge part of my
furball-ism...)
Jack> I also relate a great deal to the spiritual tradition of the Isles btw.
Lava> Yeah, I could tell when you mentioned Samhain in one of your posts.
{:-)
Lava> (busted!)
Jack> OMG I lived in Big EZ back in the 70's - still breaks my heart to see
how folks are mistreated there.
Jack> Yep busted. :-)
Lava> Yep... mistreated there and forgotten here...
Jack> Lava, it sounds like these furballs are old stuff.
Lava> PTSD is truly awful.
Jack> What kind of help for that have you accessed so far?
Jack> PTSD plus earlier stuff?
Lava> A few of them... What so many people (myself included) are
experiencing is how things have come to the surface since the storm... how
we value things -- access what is important or what isn't...
Ivanhoe> crisis creates clarity
Jack> and opportunity.
Ivanhoe> !
Lava> So old issues... like my father... come up because before it was easy
to bury...but now not so much...
Jack> I hear you. Like the World is telling you - now is the time to deal and
heal.
Ivanhoe> fathers seem to be the theme of the day
Lava> After the storm, as people were coming back home to slabs that used
to be their homes, they said they wished they hadn't worried so much about
their laptop or their iPod but had grabbed pictures instead.
Jack> Whew.
Ivanhoe> ...
Jack> That's part of that shift - y'all.
Jack> Hey Lava - if you have some time - can we do a checkin with stoki
who I believe is first time here?
Lava> Funny, though (or maybe not funny), I have NO furballs from my
experiences of being molested as a kid or date-raped at 21... Honestly, Jack.
No furballs there... But this Katrina thing...
Lava> fooey.
Lava> yes! by all means! Hey, stoki!
Ivanhoe> wow, lava. that's some heavy stuff. I'm sorry to hear that
Jack> Thanks Lava - you're bookmarked for after stoki if ok with Zeitgeist.
Ivanhoe> hi stoki!
Jack> stoki, please help us get to know you a little by sharing (IF ok)
generally where you're from, age,
Jack> marital status, how long practicing the Multiple Orgasm Trigger, and
any questions you may have.
Jack> We always support your sharing ONLY the stuff you're ok sharing
under pseudonym in a supportive public forum. :-)
stoki> I just went into kitchen to get something to eat...
stoki> back now
stoki> So.. this is my first time in a live chat
Jack> CONGRATULATIONS!
Jack> WELCOME!
stoki> I bought the program a month ago or something
Ivanhoe> yes, welcome
Ivanhoe> I'm new too
Jack> We follow a Talking Stick convention here. That is, one person at a
time has the floor, and the rest of us respond to your questions and
comments.
Jack> Welcome back dman!
stoki> and I've since been reading stories on the forum
Jack> We're talking with newbie stoki.
dman> Thanks, Jack. Hi Stoki!
Jack> Great, stoki! Which ones have spoken to you?
stoki> and I listened through the mp3s a couple of times
Jack> Good.
Jack> Did you also read the pdf?
Jack> The Multiple Orgasm Trigger Protocol Summary Update
stoki> I browsed through it
Jack> Ok. FYI use THAT document as your PRIMARY how-to guide for the
step by step practice.
Jack> What are your questions? How goes practice?
Jack> also IF you want - your age, where typing from, generally, marital
status, etc.
stoki> I made myself a little checklist of things I need to do so I don't have
to go through the mp3s or the pdf every time
stoki> Now about the sessions... I performed only one since my purchase
Jack> Cool! Would you be willing to post the checklist to the Forum?
Jack> Ok - how long ago was that one session?
Lava> There is an excellent post by Jack that I bookmarked... It was on the
Wiki... the Protocol in a nutshell... Search Wiki for "nutshell"... good stuff.
stoki> I can do that if you like
stoki> 4 days ago I think
Jack> Lava please post the bookmark URL here if you like.
Lava> http://216.187.96.104/orgasmwiki/
Jack> Ok, stoki - what was the practice session like for you?
stoki> I was performing it according to the protocol
_)
stoki> with adequate breathing between the KSs
Multiple_Orgasm_Trigger_Protocol%E2%84%A2
stoki> I just felt that I didn't get my chest to vibrate enough
Jack> how could you tell?
stoki> I picked this somewhere I think it's in your mp3s that you must feel
some kind of a resonance in your chest
Jack> When you are making the Key Sound in a relaxed somewhat husky,
Jack> but NOT forced way, when you place your hand on your chest,
Jack> you are likely to feel a greater than normal vibration in your chest.
Jack> By greater than normal I mean
Jack> greater than when you are just talking or making chants, or tones
other than the Key Sound.
stoki> I believe that multiples will eventually manifest for me
stoki> I just need to practice more
Jack> In a comparison / calibration technique I describe in the second
seminar that concentrates on Key Sound training specifically,
Jack> I recommend that you place your hand on your chest, and then make
an AHHHHHH sound (i.e. a sound that is NOT the Key Sound I demonstrate).
Jack> And notice how little vibration there tends to be in your chest. Then
Jack> listen to one of my demonstrations of the Key Sound in the intro
seminar and do your best to imitate it in a RELAXED manner. When you are
Jack> doing it in an at least approximately effective manner, you will notice
some increase in vibration in your chest.
Jack> It's important though, not to try to force the Key Sound in any way. As
soon as you
Jack> introduce tension through forcing into the Key Sound, that tension
starts closing the energy pathways that the practice is trying to open.
stoki> In my first session I felt the tingle but I don't know if that is what I'm
looking for
Jack> If you felt a tingle that wasn't there before, then that is exactly what
the Protocol indicates at this very early stage of practice.
Ivanhoe> do you mind to explain where you felt the tingle?
Jack> The early Echo Effects tend to be VERY FAINT and NOT PARTICULARLY
erotic. - In the beginning.
stoki> It starts at the base of the spine
Jack> So there's a great and understandable tendency to ignore them.
Jack> That sounds very good!
Ivanhoe> ah very good, mine too
Jack> All Right!!! Gotta Witness!
stoki> and spreads up through the spine and then through the body
Ivanhoe> yup
Jack> Wow that's a lot for one practice session stoki!
stoki> but it is not orgasmic in nature
Jack> Of course not!
stoki> I am familiar with this feeling
Ivanhoe>
Lava> ah, grasshopper...
Lava> {:-)
Jack> I say of course not because it is only the first session - early days!
Jack> LOL Lava. :-)
Jack> Yep.
Jack> Stoki, how is it a familiar feeling?
stoki> Familiar in a way that I feel it quite often
Lava> do you do yoga? or anything similar?
stoki> like.. when you listen to music that you like
stoki> no
Jack> RE: the listening to music that you like - that makes total sense!
Ivanhoe> interesting
stoki> can you tell me where I am from your perspective?
Jack> Please remember that in the Protocol I state that the early Echo Effects
are not likely to feel erotic. There's a tremendous tendency for people to
overlook them or discount them as no big deal.
stoki> so this energy just needs to be upgraded
stoki> taken to a higher level
Jack> Stoki, I would say that you are at the beginning. It is very encouraging
to hear that you are getting so much energy movement during practice.
Jack> Rather than taken to a higher level - ALLOWED to OPEN to a higher
level. Rather than any kind of going for it - it's learning to RELAX ENOUGH to
OPEN to more feeling.
Jack> As that happens, sometimes the emotional furballs come up as they
are wanting to be healed so that the energy may flow even more freely.
Ivanhoe> I can relate to most of what stoki is describing
Jack> How so, Ivanhoe?
Ivanhoe> well, the feelings being familiar yet not erotic for instance
Jack> Yeah that is VERY typical during early days!
Ivanhoe> and that they travel up the spine and heat up the body
Ivanhoe> so there's still hope for us then, stoki hehe
Jack> ALSO VERY IMPORTANT - remember that with this practice, the
stronger feelings MOST OFTEN BEGIN by occurring at times BETWEEN practice
sessions.
Jack> Oh yeah you two - there is still hope! :-)
zeitgeist> paradoxically on the days off!
dman> I'm sorry I missed some of what was said
dman> because my connection cut out
dman> what does it feel like between sessions
dman> and what did it feel like for stoki during practice?
Lava> (kundalini yoga might help understand the upward movement from
the sacrum up the spine???)
Jack> Yep, when your innate multiorgasmic response literally has the
BREATHING ROOM to awaken further - as manifest by stronger Echo Effects.
Lava> If Jack agrees...
stoki> you know what's funny
Jack> Yes Lava. It seems similar if not the same.
Jack> imho, of course.
stoki> I used to read Deepak Chopra
stoki> and a lot of books on multiples
stoki> they were describing energy flow
stoki> and I have no doubt that they know what they are talking about
Lava> Yes, opening the Chakras feels more localized to each chakra area, as
opposed to the KSMO which seems more of an all-over experience.
Lava> once you get the hang of it. :-)
stoki> but I don't think you can learn it through theory only
stoki> someone has to show you
stoki> like Jack
Ivanhoe> lava, that's it right there - about the all-over experience
Jack> I had a very similar experience stoki. That's why I wanted to develop a
very simple system
Lava> yep... book-learning doesn't make up for real-life experience.
dman> Okay, that answers my question, I think
Jack> that contain the core essentials.
Jack> What was your question, dman?
dman> Just what it feels like, the Echo Effect?
Ivanhoe> I'm starving, will cook myself something to chew on
Jack> k lol.
stoki> even if you know how energy moves you still can't quite pull it off
yourself
Jack> Nope, that's chasing the fawn.
Jack> That's the challenge to the ego.
Jack> Ego wants to be in the driver's seat. But ego needs to RELAX and
ALLOW the subtle sensations to manifest. If ego
Jack> starts saying yeah but it's not ... (fill in the blanks) and throwing a wet
blanket on them, they say later dude, and evaporate - but on the other hand,
Jack> if you notice those subtle little tingles and flushes of heat and
however else they manifest and instead ego says, oh! there they are, just like
Jack said,
Jack> I WONDER how they might manifest next! That is with an open
curiosity within a frame of allowing these sensations
Jack> to have the room they need to BLOSSOM on their own. An analogy I
came up with in early days was that when you plant a flower,
Jack> you don't go for it by standing there and continuously pour water on
it expecting it to hurry up and grow!
Jack> Instead you water it a little, then you let it be, then you notice SUBTLE
changes, sometimes you'll notice significant bursts, other times, just little
ones.
Jack> VERY similar to allowing these Echo Effects to BLOSSOM on their own,
that little bit of fertilizing and watering that is the SINGLE caress or touch,
and the GENTLE nudge of
Jack> a relaxed unforced Key Sound.
stoki> Another thing I feel I need to share...
* Jack stepping away from the podium
Jack> :-)
Jack> Yes please.
stoki> when I was learning things about sexuality and especially female
ejaculations I became almost
stoki> envious at some point
stoki> I mean their orgasm can go on for hours and mine is over in one
little squirt
stoki> is that fairness
Lava> Okay... sorry... I need to step in here, please...
Jack> Step up, Girl
Jack> !
Jack> BTW stoki, that is a VERY common male complaint!
stoki> Jack's site brought an equilibrium back
Jack> Great!
Lava> Hey, Stoki... the myth that women have hours and hours of orgasms
is just that a MYTH. Did you know that 75% of women have NEVER orgasmed
during sex?
stoki> I know that
Jack> READERS PLEASE TAKE NOTE!
stoki> and I feel sorry for them
Lava> When reading thru the posts, I noticed that several men are under
this misconception.
Jack> It's one of the ways culture keeps men and women alienated from one
another.
Lava> A woman being able to orgasm at all during sex has to do position,
level of feeling comfortable... and even then, the "hours and hours" of
orgasms only happens with someone else getting exhausted causing the
woman's orgasms.
stoki> I'm just looking at the higher levels of sexual development
Ivanhoe> come on, saving discussions on female orgasm until I run off to
the kitchen? that's not nice
Lava> They don't happen magically. I guess what Jack's techniques offer is
the opportunity for MEN & WOMEN to have hours of pleasure equally with no
one getting Tennis Elbow in the process.
Jack> WELL SAID LAVA. Stoki - I want to address a couple of things you
said.
stoki> all I'm saying is it brings back the equilibrium
Ivanhoe> I agree stoki
Jack> You said you became envious when you learned about female
ejaculations, and then you said your orgasm is over in one little squirt.
Jack> That's a VERY VERY common frame that keeps men AND women
trapped. So I thank you for verbalizing it. NO BLAME AT ALL - what you are
verbalizing is the result of intense enculturation.
Ivanhoe> would it not be fair to say that the KS method makes it easier for
men to last longer and easier for women to orgasm?
Jack> Let's unpack it though.
Jack> yes Ivanhoe.
Jack> Stoki, You said you were envious of female ejaculations and when you
orgasm you only have one little squirt.
stoki> yes
Jack> The little squirt is not orgasm. It is ejaculation. That is one of the first
things to sort out. We've been enculturated to use the terms interchangeably
Jack> and that's a big source of confusion. ORGASM is the rush of FEELING.
You can have all you want! EJACULATION is the emission of fluid usually
accompanied by some orgasmic release. This is true for all genders.
Jack> Ejaculation is a SEPARATE REFLEX from the ORGASMIC reflex.
Jack> It is conflating or combining or confusing the two that leads to
ejaculation BLOCKING strategies for men such as last moment muscle
squeezing or breath holding
Jack> or penis squeezing or whatever. Those methods are based on the
assumption that ejaculation and orgasm are the same.
stoki> yes - that is the first thing you get to know when you delve in this
new research area
Ivanhoe> but ejaculating prevents further orgasm? or is that wrong?
Jack> But when we understand that they really are two separate (though
related) processes - in men and in women - then we have taken the first
Jack> step to accepting the possibility that one - regardless of gender -
may experience orgasm without ejaculation yet without blocking it.
Jack> Usually male ejaculation reflex gets awakened by the going for it
mode: fairly continuous - often vigorous direct stimulation, increasing muscle
tension, shallow rapid breathing.
Jack> Sound familiar?
Jack> That's why the Multiple Orgasm Trigger Protocol is based on the
opposite of those activities: slow, relaxed breathing, muscles relaxed, a
SINGLE touch or caress.
Jack> Then... the BIG QUESTION:
Jack> If you're NOT using lots of stimulation, then how in the heck to build
arousal?
Jack> DRUMROLL:
Jack> Enter the KEY SOUND!
zeitgeist> Tsssh!
Jack> (thanks for the cymbal crash, there Z!).
Jack> The Key Sound is AN AROUSAL AMPLIFIER that is NOT BASED ON
STIMULATION.
Ivanhoe> so intercourse after the Key Sound is mastered becomes less about
actual intercourse and more about distributing energy with the Key Sound?
Jack> THAT is the AXIS of the breakthrough on which it all turns. To have a
way to GENTLY nudge arousal upward - ever upward - over a period of time.
To gently AWAKEN that deeper multiorgasmic response. That's it!
Jack> Well intercourse becomes whatever you negotiate it to be. But having
the newly awakened multiorgasmic ability that has been TRIGGERED and
AWAKENED by Key Sound practice,
Jack> gives you far greater capacity to FEEL both sensually and emotionally
during intercourse.
Jack> BTW, You do not HAVE to use the Key Sound during intercourse!
Ivanhoe> so you actually shout out the Key Sound during the physical act?
Ivanhoe> oh
Jack> It can be very sexy to do so - and to pass that sound back and forth
between partners, but it's not necessary.
Jack> No you don't shout it out. Are you conflating spontaneous sounds with
the intentional use of the Key Sound?
stoki> I believe you said somewhere that knowing this other field of
pleasure then gives you a choice
stoki> of ordinary ejaculatory OR multiple orgasm
Jack> It's really great if you've negotiated with your partner that it's ok for
you both to make the spontaneous sounds you want during sex.
Lava> Communication - The BIGGEST Turn-On!!!!
Lava> {:-)
Ivanhoe> yeah
Jack> Stoki - this practice enhances the feelings you'll have during
ejaculation, but you don't HAVE to experience ejaculation to learn to open to
feelings that are way
Jack> more intense that ever before - and even without ejaculation or
having to consciously hold back ejaculation.
Jack> Stoki, I'd also caution you not to concentrate too much on how it's
supposed to feel or what it's supposed to be like.
stoki> see that's what pisses me off with these books - the title all
pompous MULTIPLE ORGASMS
Jack> It's somewhat different for everyone. Everyone awakens areas of their
body and qualities of sensation that is their own sequence of awakening.
stoki> and then you look inside and it's all these little finger techniques and
million dollar spots
Jack> Yep - ejaculation blocking.
Ivanhoe> I wonder though, say if you were to have sex with a partner
(female) that is not used to they Key Sound, doesn't want to know it and
wants to go really fast and hard - how can the technique be helpful in such a
situation?
Jack> Even some of the sex advisors on the highest traffic websites still say
that guys just can't have real multiple orgasms because they're still tying
orgasm to ejaculation.
Jack> Ivanhoe - You are likely to feel it a more than you would such an
activity before.
Jack> This practice makes the multiorgasmic response much more
accessible - loads of stimulation is not required. It can be great fun though!
stoki> but then again you must ask yourself if you really want to be with a
person that doesn't want to open up
Ivanhoe> what do you mean? control becomes easier as a natural
byproduct?
Jack> very good point stoki.
Ivanhoe> yes stoki
Jack> What do you mean, control? Controlling what?
stoki> ejaculation probably
Jack> yeah that's what I figured too stoki, but I wanted to verify with
Ivanhoe.
Ivanhoe> yes, that's what I meant
Ivanhoe> it's all hypothetical, but if you cannot choose to slow down and be
gentle because the woman is on top for instance
Jack> Well it won't be so much about controlling. If there's something you
feel you have to control, then you're already in the beginning stages of
energizing the ejaculation reflex.
Jack> It is less an issue of control, because when you are turned on THIS
way, your whole body is involved so you can be intensely multi-orgasmic and
not have any erection at all at times, because
Jack> that super high arousal is so diffuse throughout your body.
Jack> Well if the woman is on top and you'd like her to slow down you can
ask her.
Ivanhoe> that's true
Jack> Or negotiate for some of the time when she's on top you go at her
pace and sometimes at yours.
Jack> Also I think a lot of women prefer for lovemaking to go on longer if
possible, so often they may be motivated to help.
stoki> this is really good explanation - instead of centralizing your pleasure
in the penis you spread it throughout the body
Ivanhoe> !
stoki> and you do that with a sound
stoki> how else could you do it?
Jack> Not just any sound!
Jack> The KEY Sound(tm)
zeitgeist> Tssssh!
Jack> The Key Sound plus the rest of the simple protocol. That's how you
do it, stoki. To INITIALLY AWAKEN the response.
stoki> I mean the penis is within a hands reach but you can't use hands to
stimulate your entire body
stoki> so you use vibration
Jack> Once the response is awakened in you, then the Key Sound becomes
an optional component.
Lava> whoa! I missed some of this...
Lava> Can I address something a few lines back....
Jack> Good thing ya showed up, eh, Lava? :-)
Jack> Yes please!
Jack> and we want to give zeitgeist and dman some air time too!
Jack> This practice definitely shows the power of the YIN in accessing the
YANG.<Lava> Any advice on opening the heart if you're not Buddhist? I do
yoga, so I'm familiar with opening Chakras. Similar?
Jack> Going for it is YANG - ALLOWING it is YIN.<Lava> Or is this a Search
the Wiki thing?
Ivanhoe> lava, the best practice I know is called tonglen
Jack> No let's address it Lava.
Ivanhoe> it's a Tibetan method, but can be practiced by anyone anywhere
with no relation to Buddhism
Jack> you saying that tonglen has worked well for you Ivanhoe?
Jack> Gotta URL?
Ivanhoe> yes, it has worked very well, together with more exclusively
Buddhist methods like chenrezig practice. But I don't mean to proselytize

stoki has entered the room (hostname: XXXXX.dynamic.dsl.t-2.net)
Jack> Ivanhoe and Zeitgeist (time check for you, ma
Jack> Please don't try to paste into the chat. That's not working. Just type
what you want to say.
Ivanhoe> __12http://www.shambhala.org/teachers/pema/tonglen1.php__
Jack> Welcome newbie stokie!
Jack> Thanks Ivanhoe for that URL!<zeitgeist> no prob with me...
Ivanhoe> you're welcome
stoki> Hi!
zeitgeist> hi stokie!
stoki> Sorry I'm late.
Ivanhoe> yeah, I've had more than enough attention, jack. I'm very grateful
Lava> Confession time>> I have purposely held off on
Jack> This has never happened before!
Ivanhoe> I think there's a bug
Lava> trying the exact KSMO because I am trying to deal with furballs
first. When I listen to the Audio (of Jack) and when I listen to the Ecstacy CD
ot just meditate, I can feel the ripples of heat and "want"... But I don't want
to practice yet.<Jack> We're just getting ready to opass the Talking Stick to
Lava (if ok, by zeitgeist's time zone)<Jack> Lava - TRUST THAT!<Jack>
What's the nearest big city to where you liv_4 [msg continues
Jack> Hey Lava! Trying leaving the chat and coming back in. See if that fixes
things for you.
Jack> Yeah this is bananas!
Lava> Is it still fried?
Jack> That line worked!
Ivanhoe> no, you took it with you
Jack> Were you trying to paste something?
Lava> Yes, pasted one line... won't do that again. {:-)
Jack> Yeah just type what you want to say. I'll make a note to the editor.
Jack> Thanks!
Jack> Please continue.
Ivanhoe> the textfield is a little difficult to use actually
Lava> Anyhow... back to Stoki... and the women needing longer lovemaking
-- yes, please, longer lovemaking... BUT the foreplay is the key!
Jack> foreplay = more intimacy AND more time to become more FULLY
aroused.
Lava> For usual sex... not KSMO sex... Again, first start with the mind... get
her in the mood mentally... then start with the erogenous zones...
Lava> The nipples are directly wired to the clitoris... that's why a lot of
women are so sensitive there and like it... but some women are so sensitive,
it hurts... so communication comes into play again...
Lava> and the truth is, foreplay starts first thing in the morning, and goes
on thru the day, and sex should be a natural progression from that, not out
of the blue... that's what turns us off... when we're nothing more than a
means to your end.
Jack> THANK YOU for articulating that so clearly!
Lava> I think that it follows the KSMO protocol of allowing it to happen...
Foreplay allows the partners to open up to each other and pleasure in a
similar way.
Jack> That's what some women have said about their male partners who
have learned the skill. That... now he is on MY wavelength !
stoki> so the first thing is to become articulate enough
Lava> A good lesson in female anatomy wouldn't hurt either. :-)
Ivanhoe>
Jack> Certainly one of the first. Communication is a cornerstone of hot sex.
Lava> Your idea of what a female "looks/acts" like may be different from
the reality...
zeitgeist> McForplay works both ways!
Lava> HAHA
Jack> Yeah. The thing is, who's gonna teach that lesson in anatomy? It's
good for men to learn on their own, but again that comes to communication.
Lava> **female orgasm
Jack> Very good point Z!
Jack> Lava is there anything else you'd like to say about that, or another
issue?
Lava> Yes. And many women, say over the age of 40 may still feel the
enculturation (Jack's $5 word :-) , that their body is dirty or pleasure is sinful.
Lava> so they may not have learned THEIR OWN anatomy.
Jack> I don't think it's just over 40. Lotta young people being fed a lot of
scary b.s. too.
Lava> yeah, that's true.
Jack> Also VERY true about women not having learned about their own
anatomy.
Lava> I had a stupid question... I'll email you privately. {:-)
Jack> The only stupid question is one that doesn't get asked. :-)
Jack> That's fine. Lava. Thanks. I'll look for it. Please reference the chat in
the subject line.
Lava> What's your email?
Jack> Ok! May we pass the Talking Stick to dman or Zeiteist? Zeitgeist how
are you doing timewise - it's getting late in the UK I know!
Ivanhoe> everyone, you've been enormously generous with your time, but I
better go to bed. I hope to speak with you again sometime
zeitgeist> yeah_
dman> Bye Ivanhoe!
Jack> email is jack plus the at-sign plus multiples.com
zeitgeist> I'd like to go next before the server pops!
Lava> bye, Ivanhoe!
stoki> bye
Jack> Yes Ivanhoe, please don't be scarce!
Ivanhoe> bye everyone and thanks see you in orgasm heaven!
Jack> Check in with us via the Forum in between times, and then do please
return to the chats. It's GREAT to have you be part of our conversation!
Jack> Dang, he missed that last stmt.
Jack> LOL re: orgasm heaven.
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