Session Start: Sat Feb 05 12:02:40 2005
Jack> Hi Pod!
podcoet> hello
Jack> I believe this is your first time here, isn't it?
Jack> (In general terms) Where are you typing from?
podcoet> yes, forgive me am on the 'phone, full attention soon
Jack> I'll wait. Pls let me know when you are available for chat. :-)
Jack> Any chance you can call them back? If other people show up, it will get busy, and since you're here first, I want to offer you the first oppty to get your questions answered, if you like.
Jack> No biggie, if someone else shows up, they can go first and then you can get a time slice after the most recent person in the door.
Jack> Hey donnoi, Welcome back!
donnoi> welcome again
Jack> donnoi, could you pls tell me again where you are typing from, age, etc.? I didn't get it in my notes from last time. Thanks!
donnoi> From Albuquerque NM. age 45
Jack> Great! Thank you. Married or single?
Jack> Also, how long have you been practicing the Protocol?
donnoi> single, divorced for a year, and "celibate" if you recall. practicing the protocol for 3 weeks now
Jack> Hi doin! Welcome! Donnoi currently has the Talking Stick, then
Jack> pod is next (if off the phone), then you, ok? and Welcome!!!
Jack> Yes, donnoi, for the benefit of the others and the readers,
doinndoin> Thanks Jack
Jack> could you pls reiterate your definition of "celibate"?
Jack> Some people think that means no sexual activity of _any_ kind.
Jack> [ You're welcome, doinndoin! ]
Jack> donnoi, that ? about definition of "celibate" was to you. :-)
donnoi> I use the courtly term : "mezura", which mean moderation. In other words i refrain from ejaculation most of the time as a dicipline, an experiment
Jack> [ Thanks! Also please end a line with . ? or ! when it's our turn to talk... thanks! ]
Jack> [ r u still typing? ]
donnoi> No.
Jack> [ When typing, it's good to hit ENTER every ten words or so. Thanks!]
Jack> Ok thanks!
Jack> donnoi, it would seem like the practice of mezura might fit rather well with this Protocol, since you have already
Jack> detached yourself somewhat from making ejaculation the goal. Do I understand that correctly?
donnoi> I do. I am into Tantra you might say. Actually Fin'amour as a western version as in "courtly love"!
Jack> Thanks for clarifying that! BTW, I have not heard of the term "mezura" in this context b4. From what cultural heritage does it originate?
donnoi> Courtly love is the context. from the middle ages - Knight and Lady's , etc.
Jack> Right. I just hadn't heard the term "mezura" b4, and was wondering where you'd found it or read about it.
donnoi> I have been a student for years. A much misunderstood practice. I hope to write a book about it as a form of western Tantraa
Jack> [ finished typing? ] COOL! Thanks! How is your practice of the Multiple Orgasm Trigger Protocol going? What questions or comments do you have?
Jack> You're talking with the guy who discovered this, so please ask! :-)
donnoi> It is a form of meditation for me now, like kundalini yoga. I have even had orgasm during lunch break at work, sitting in my chair. WOW!
Jack> Was it spontaneous, or intentional?
donnoi> It was ther result of doing the key sound under my breath.
Jack> Ok. I need to caution you that I consider use of this Protocol to be a _sexual act_ and as such, I do not consider it appropriate to be practiced in public places. If you're in a private place that is different. But not around others who have not specifically consented to participate.
Jack> I think it is very cool that you are learning to open up to these feelings. I just want to encourage you to respect proper boundaries for running sexual energy.
Jack> Does that make any sense to you?
donnoi> I hear you,. My work space is for the most part isolated. and the result was somewhat unexpected.
Jack> Thanks for hearing me about that. I can assure you that if we run this energy in public, people _are_ very likely to feel it, and I'm a firm believer in _informed consent_.
Jack> What about in private, what have your experiences been like?
donnoi> I must say that I am into reiki healing and find the protocal very energising. I touched a coworkers back at a pain spot and the pain istantly vanished. In private, it is very mild to very intense and energizex me completely.
Jack> When, in private, did you first start noticing that something new was happening as a result of your practice of the Protocol? What did that feel like? I know people would like to know. They always ask, "How can you TELL, if you're not ejaculating?"
donnoi> For me it, runs from heightened sensitivity around the perenium, to waves of involuntary whole body contractions to tingling or vibrating beelins alond the sucases of the musculature
donnoi> forgot the period again..
Jack> LOL thanks for the . "Along the ? of the musculature" did you mean "surfaces" or ?
donnoi> bad typing, ... feelings of vibrating or tingling along the surface musculature.
Jack> Thanks! No prob. Just wanted to be clear. What suggestions might you offer to newbies and others who are learning how to open to this energy?
donnoi> Even though I find this comparatively easy, I know if I get impatient and try to force at all I really defeat any progress.
Jack> Yeah! That's a very important tip!
Jack> It's what Andi from the U.K. referred to as "chasing the fawn away." (see her posts in Women's Experience conference of the Forum).
donnoi> It's worth the wait, be patient.
Jack> YEAH! And also VERY IMPORTANT: DON'T IGNORE THE SUBTLE NEW SENSATIONS ALONG THE WAY. (sorry about the shout, but it's REALLY important to not get trapped into chasing the orgasms!). Do you have any questions you'd like to ask about practice?
Jack> I think that's why you're having such great success. My sense is that you are NOT ignoring those all-important SUBTLE Echo Effects.
donnoi> No questions of yet. I am just growing into awareness of all the subtleties and not trying to have any expectations.
donnoi> you read my mind.
Jack> LOL. That sounds PERFECT, donnoi! And CONGRATULATIONS on your practice! I just ask that you not practice in public. :-) That includes while driving, btw. :-)
Jack> Hey doinndoin and podcoet, do YOU have any questions to ask of donnoi?
donnoi> Yes Master, hear you loud and Clear
Jack> LOL. Thanks!
Jack> How about it, doinndoin and podcoet? What questions do you have? You have TWO "resident experts" here today!
Jack> Hey donnoi, would you pls start a thread in the Success Stories conference and describe what you've been experiencing?
donnoi> I will try to make the time soon!
Jack> This is still SO new on the planet that it's very important for everyone to contribute stories of their experience to the "global knowledge base."
Jack> Yeah it doesn't have to be a big dissertation, just start a thread and then use "Reply" to add to it, like a blog.
Jack> Like an online journal.
donnoi> I have begun to try to find ways to talk about this with peopke. Any suggestions.
Jack> First thing imho is to ask them if they actually _want_ new info about sex.
Jack> [there's that "informed consent theme again!" :-) ]
donnoi> Understand!
Jack> [sorry, " should've been after the word "consent"]
Jack> Thanks!
donnoi> Understand!
Jack> Are there particular people you want to share your story with?
donnoi> Not really. I'm very Reichian I suppose. I believe orgasmic fulfilment is a part of emotional health.
Jack> [welcome angus!!! ]
Jack> I agree with that viewpoint about the relationship between orgasmic satisfaction and openness (within appropriate boundaries),
Jack> as a function of overall emotional, physical, and even social health.
angus> hi guys, i'll get up to speed here, i'll just slip in quietly
donnoi> Yes. I like what you have said about that.
Jack> Thanks D! Yeah ang, fyi donnoi is fairly new at this but he's been having some great results.
Jack> Feel free to ask him! (If that's ok with YOU, donnoi!). :-)
donnoi> OK
Jack> angus, one question donnoi has been asking is "How do you tell others about this?"
angus> welll not easily!
Jack> One answer to that question, donnoi, is, as I mentioned start posting your STORY to the Success Stories conference.
Jack> People who come to this Forum have consented to obtaining more info about sexuality.
Jack> By posting in the Forum, and, as you have been doing, by posting in these chats, that is a GREAT
Jack> way to "tell others" and will also help you "get your chops" for talking to others in person, when they
Jack> have consented to discussing this topic.
angus> where do you post donnoi?
Jack> Does that make sense?
Jack> [ my ? was to donnoi ]
donnoi> Sacred Sexuality is a part of who I am. I don't try to hide it or force it. The protocal is valuable for people like me.
Jack> I agree!
donnoi> Albuquerque NM angus.
Jack> I hear you, D! There are plenty of people who are actively consenting to receiving more info about Sacred Sexuality, including in this Forum. That's why I'm encouraging you to post your story, more or less as an ongoing journal or blog.
angus> sorry, i ment do you post anything in the forum
Jack> Angus has a GREAT journal thread going in the Forum!
donnoi> I promise to start a thread.
donnoi> Whats it about angus?
angus> just my journey with learning ks. ihave found there is so much to learn beyond looking for the 'big one'
donnoi> For me, I'm dealing not with just sex here, but with the force of Life.
Jack> [thanks donnoi about starting a thread!]
Jack> D, you'll find plenty of people in this community who agree with that viewpoint!
donnoi> I/m inr reiki and Kinesiology and energy as physical, emtoional and spiritual expression.
donnoi> I think they are there.
angus> there is alot to learn 'in' there
Jack> [You still typing angus? Didn't see a sentence terminator ] I'd like to ask podcoet and doinndoin if THEY have any questions for either of you, and also if they have any questions for me, or comments they'd like to share.
angus> .
Jack> Thanks! ;-P
Jack> podcoet and doinndoin, what questions or comments do you have? Or do you just prefer to let others talk and you "listen"?
Jack> [Annnnnd... I'd also like to hear from angus about HIS current experience with practice, and answer any questions. ]
doinndoin> Jack, Have you any coments of this protocol working in tandem with exersice and alcohol, dos and donts?
Jack> Good question, doin!
Jack> RE: Alcohol, remember that it is a DEPRESSANT, so generally I would recommend doing alcohol at a different time.
Jack> Many of the responses in this practice, especially in the beginnin,
Jack> tend to be VERY SUBTLE and I'd be concerned that alky might tend to mute or dull them.
Jack> After all, I'm only talking about a MAXIMUM of 20 minutes per practice, and at MOST every other day. :-)
Jack> I'd be suspicious of trying to use alcohol, etc. to "get" stronger effects.
Jack> I think exercise could be a GOOD thing, to... "get the juices (i.e. energy)" moving in you. I'd just suggest
Jack> experimenting with the timing of that exercise in relationship to the 20 min practice sessions
Jack> (e.g. before, or after, etc.).
Jack> During the 20 min sessions themselves, RELAXATION is a cornerstone so GENERALLY I would say to devote
Jack> that 20 minutes to RELAXATION and practice. But, what they hey... experiment and see how it affects
Jack> the presence and strength of the AUTOMATIC Echo Effects. THEY are the ultimate guide to
Jack> when you are off track or on track, imho.
Jack> What do the rest of you think re: doin's question?
angus> exercise would be also dependant on ones energy stores,what type of exercise and how strenuous.
donnoi> I agree with no alcohol. I do martial arts and find it reileves strees, allowing relaxation afterward.
Jack> Yeah. Also a good exercise program can help awaken the chi, the life force, and make may make that energy
Jack> more available during practice. The thing is moderation... if you do a really INTENSE workout, then of course
Jack> there may be LESS energy. (These comments directed to the readers generally...).
Jack> GOOD QUESTION doin!
Jack> What others? From you or anyone?
donnoi> I sould perhaps add that mt martial art is meditation for me .. very Zen.
Jack> Yeah I can relate to THAT!
donnoi> I need to say that I just received the Wild Divine Bio-feedback software.
Jack> Oh yeah? How is it working for you?
doinndoin> Any thoughts on forms of exercise- a workout at the gym vs. stretching like in Taichi or Yoga?
Jack> one sec, doin, we'll answer right after donnoi answers. Thanks! :-)
donnoi> i'v just had time to go through the introduction. will let you know. it looks good though.
Jack> Yeah! I think it may have GREAT potential in combo with the Multiple Orgasm Trigger Protocol practice.
Jack> Like... do a session with the Wild Divine system, and then move right into a 20 minute practice session of the Protocol.
donnoi> I think your right. it will definitely help tune into the sibtlties of th body mind.
Jack> [Readers: FOR DETAILS PLEASE SEE: http://www.multiples.com/wild.html ]
Jack> Yeah and get you into those very centered energy states.
Jack> Donnoi, please start a thread in the Forum about your use of it and
Jack> how it seems to integrate with the Multiple Orgasm Trigger Protocol practice, ok?
donnoi> ive already found that what I thought I was doing to relax was actually creating tension.
Jack> In fact, I'll create a NEW Conference about it.
donnoi> I'll find the time somehow.
Jack> Oh WOW!!! THAT sounds REALLY significant, donnoi!
Jack> Thanks d, just short posts, dude! Even a few sentences at a time. Like I said, like a blog. Just two minutes of check in.
Jack> You'll reach a LOT of people by that simple act.
donnoi> What I though I was ding to create energy stats was in fact doing that. Good to know.
Jack> To say the LEAST!
Jack> I DEFINITELY hope you'll include THAT awareness in the posts about the W/D.
donnoi> OK
Jack> Ok thanks! I just created that conference! It's called:
Jack> "Wild Divine biofeedback system and the Multiple Orgasm Trigger Protocol."
Jack> Have at it! :-)
donnoi> got it!
Jack> LOL. Thanks, Brother!
Jack> Ok! How about we give angus the Talking Stick for a checkin?
angus> thanks jack, not much to report really, i found i was doing too much and felt the need to pull back a bit.
Jack> "Too much" practice? As in "chasing the fawn"?
angus> in your new protocol at the downloads page it confirmed i was on the right track. and yes somtimes still chasing the faun
Jack> Great! I'm glad that latest revision of the Multiple Orgasm Trigger Protocol Summary Update was helpful!
Jack> I'm glad you brought this up about the importance of taking a break every once in a while.
angus> yep.
Jack> It is REALLY important!
Jack> What most people don't realize, is that:
Jack> IT IS OFTEN IN THE TIMES __BETWEEN__ PRACTICE SESSIONS THAT SOME OF THE BEST "NEW AWAKENINGS" MAY OCCUR.
Jack> This is why in the Protocol I suggest AT LEAST one day off BETWEEN practice sessions.
Jack> LIkewise,
Jack> that's why I also strongly suggest that one does NOT intentionally ejaculate during or after
Jack> a Protocol practice session,
Jack> as this may tend to dissipate the new responses that are trying to awaken. Please note
Jack> that I am _not_ saying "Don't ever ejaculate." I am just saying that if that IS something you enjoy,
Jack> just "save it" for the days BETWEEN sessions. Or even take TWO days off between
Jack> practice sessions, and save an ejaculation experience for the SECOND day after a Protocol practice session.
Jack> That way, you get this new multi-orgasmic energy started during the active practice session,
Jack> the allow the NEXT day for any new Echo Effects to surface and be enjoyed,
Jack> and then on the FOLLOWING day off between Protocol practice, treat yourself to an ejaculation experience if that is your desire.
Jack> Does that make sense?
Jack> "Get the picture?" :-)
angus> since i tend to have strong contractions during a session, i have leaned to take more time off between sessions. the other thing i do now is practise up to just prior to the contractions and maintain a focus on the energy level of the practise, the level just 'below' the physical energy level.
Jack> Right on re: more time off between sessions! RE: "just prior to contractions"...
Jack> do you stop practice altogether, or do you shift to PAUSING stimulation (and perhaps Key Sound),
Jack> but continuing with the relaxing breathing?
Jack> Whoa!
Jack> Sorry about that I lost my connection.
angus> playing too much wild divine againjack?
Jack> lol!
angus> i guess the point i was making jack is that during my sessions i now have a choice. one is to go with the contractions and deep pleasure that accompanies that or to open to relaxing even more and allowing the energy to flow at a deeper level. the second seems more advantageous to opening the body etc to deeper and more long term satisfaction, it jst isn't as intense as going with the contractions.
Jack> Got it. Ok, how long
Jack> have you been practicing
angus> year and a half
Jack> this pattern of exploring switching to the energy flow at a deeper level?
angus> oh,
Jack> :-)
angus> a few months
Jack> Ok, thanks.
Jack> Question:
Jack> When you switch to the pattern that does not include the contractions,
Jack> and you feel those deeper level feelings, over time, have THOSE feelings shifted, expanded, evolved etc in any way,
Jack> or are they always pretty much the same?
angus> yes, the deeper feelings are at a very relaxed state, and lately they are more erotic in a non physical way.
Jack> Ok! That is, it seems like those feelings ARE evolving, and your erotic responses ARE evolving, albeit in a way
Jack> that does not feel specifically "physical", am I describing that accurately?
angus> yep.
Jack> Ok, great!!! Do you still allow the contractions experience from time to time?
angus> yes, that is my more yang practise, whereas this is my more yin,
angus> the contractions feel great but can and do get uncomfortable, and that isn't 'relaxation', whereas the energy practise allows me to remain relaxed and open.
Jack> Ok! It sounds then like you are allowing some of BOTH variations in your practice,
Jack> am I understanding that correctly?
angus> yep.
Jack> How do you feel about this new way of practicing?
angus> depends on my physical/emotional state at the time. i like the new way as it seems to be taking me deeper, whereas the yang aspect is more for immediate gratification if that makes sense.
Jack> I think that probably makes sense to most guys! :-)
angus> lol.
Jack> I'd like to suggest a possible slight variation in your yang practice, just to explore... would that be ok?
angus> sure!
Jack> Thanks! First, in a sentence or few, would you pls summarize your pattern of stimulation, KS, relaxing breathing, etc. that typically
Jack> is part of your yang practice, and that usually leads to the contractions?
Jack> [and press ENTER once in a while... :-) ]
Jack> Jeez, I sure don't know why we keep losing the connection.
angus> oh dear, jack is having problems today!
Jack> Yeah sure am!
Jack> Did you happen to type in the summary of the yang practice? Cuz if so, I missed it!
Jack> [Looks like we lost the other guys too, dang it!]
Jack> Are you still able to read this, angus?
angus> right, onece again here. first i relax, then i do a sound, feel the echoes move about for a bit, then i may start with some light touching, nipple or a caress,
angus> (yes, ican readit)
Jack> Thanks! Just press ENTER every ten words or so, THANKS!
Jack> pls continue. :-)
angus> do a sound, and allow the process to repeat. if i intentionally move my pelvis i can intensify the echoes.
Jack> Oh THAT is good to know, about the intentional moving of the pelvis!
Jack> It sounds like you've made a LOT of progress in learning how to initiate the Echo Effects and how to allow them to become stronger.
Jack> When you decide to switch to yin mode, which of the activities you just described do you change or omit?
angus> i omit the touching, perhaps the sound, and may slow down any pelvic movement. and i cease working with the contractions via the abdominal muscles.
Jack> Oh... that "working with the abdominal muscles" is new info! Would you pls explain that component a little more?
angus> sure, when i get strong echoes, the slight pelvic movement or slight tensing of the abs will intensify the echoes. and
angus> although this seems probably a bit off protocol to you as they are not totally automatic, at the
angus> samt time it seems 'natural' to do so.
Jack> That is FINE! NOT off Protocol, because you are letting your Echo Effects be your guide!
angus> at least it seems appropriate jack.
Jack> Remember, the Protocol as I describe it is a GUIDE, not an absolute. Your ECHO Effects are your primary teacher.
Jack> Yes I agree, angus!
Jack> Ok, when you are in the yang practice mode, how much stimulation? A single touch or caress, or a little more than that?
angus> that is wht i call it my yang practise, cause it is more in control whereas the yin practise is more passive. as for stim,
Jack> By "in control" do you mean the intentional crunching or tensing of the abdominal muscles?
angus> i have learned to do slow touching so it feels more sensual. and i have slowed down my key sound as well.
angus> re :control- yes
Jack> GOOD! Sounds like you've been getting some pretty strong results from that change, yes?
angus> yep.
Jack> CONGRATULATIONS! Ok,
Jack> when in yang practice,
Jack> about how many relaxing breaths are you using between each erotic touch or caress, and Key Sound?
angus> at first about 2, then more as i go along.
Jack> As you go along, but still in the yang practice mode?
angus> yep.
Jack> Ok, thanks. When you say "more" relaxing breaths, up to about how many, per cycle of the touch, KS, relaxing breathing?
angus> 3-5?
Jack> Ok, thanks. And where in the
Jack> pattern of erotic touch or caress, Key Sound, 2 to 5 relaxing breaths, do you
Jack> introduce the _intentional_ abdominal muscle contractions to further amplify the effects?
angus> firstly, when i start my session, the echoes are immediate. then as i progress they come after a breath or two. and i add the movement only when it will increase the feeling, towrards the end of the cycle.
Jack> Ok!!! THAT is news too, isn't it? That you are now feeling Echoes at the very beginning of practice?
angus> no, i've genreally felt them from the start.
Jack> Ah ok, my mistake. I'm really glad to hear that you ARE consistently getting those Echoes from the beginning of a practice session.
Jack> Ok,
Jack> am I understanding correctly that
Jack> typically you do the intentional ab contraction just before the erotic touch and Key Sound, or?
angus> at the beginning of the practise they are more intense but more abdominally centred after a while they mellow somewhat but move outwards more into my body.
angus> re :contraction-
Jack> "they" being the AUTOMATIC Echo Effects?
angus> in the middle of the cycle .
angus> re: automatic echos- yes
angus> .
Jack> I'm not sure where the "middle" is. :-) Do you typically do the intentional ab contractions before or after you use the Key Sound?
Jack> Or "whenever"? :-)
angus> two to three breaths after.
Jack> Ok, so generally you do the intentional contractions 2 or 3 breaths AFTER the Key Sound,
Jack> maybe followed by one or more additional relaxing breaths, before the next erotic touch?
angus> yes, i do the movement to enhance the largest echo.
Jack> Ok! I think have it clear in my mind now. Thank you for being so patient! :-)
angus> no thank you!
Jack> I'd like to make a suggestion, just
Jack> to find out what new might all learn from your explorations,
Jack> are you up for that?
angus> sure!
Jack> Ok! When you are in yang practice, explore adding one additional relaxing breath before
Jack> your intentional ab contraction, and one additional relaxing breath after, and do everything else
Jack> the way you have already been doing the yang practice.
angus> k.
Jack> Remember the classic yin/yang symbol?
angus> yes.
Jack> Remember that in the yin there is a little spot of yang, and in the yang, there is a little spot of yin?
angus> oui.
Jack> Bon!
Jack> What I am suggesting is that you introduce a *little* spot of yin (i.e. an extra relaxing breath)
Jack> into your primarily yang practice, to find out what happens.
angus> k. sounds easy enough!
Jack> Great! Yeah, just do one additional breath than you normally have been inclined to do,
Jack> during your yang practice.
Jack> Maybe one before the intentional ab contraction, and either right away, or a little later
Jack> in the practice, also add one more than usual in that segment just AFTER you do the intentional ab contraction,
Jack> before repeating the cycle of erotic touch, Key Sound, relaxing breaths, intentional ab contraction, relaxing breaths, and repeating.
Jack> k?
angus> so it will probaly be more like 4-7 breaths in between all total .
Jack> Yeah, whatever "just one more" feels like at the time. :-)
angus> the crunching and increased intensity has a tendancy to get me away from properly breathing, i hve been know to find myself holding my breath a bit, partially because of the intensity.
Jack> Voila.
Jack> :-)
angus> the body wants to do it somehow, and i am learning to relax through that instead of holding breath.
Jack> I think it may the breath-holding (i.e. temporary blockage of the energy flow), that may be causing these feelings of discomfort.
Jack> Yeah I'll be very interested to hear how that SLIGHT change of adding just ONE additional relaxing breath
Jack> on either side of the intentional ab contraction changes things.
angus> will do jack! good sound advice mate.
angus> i'll let you go so you can relax!
Jack> Ok!
Jack> And... have you yet posted
Jack> to your journal about the yang and the yin aspects of your practice?
Jack> If not, please do! This is good stuff!
Jack> Ok mate! I gotta take a phone call from Australia.
Jack> BLESS YOU BROTHER!
angus> one thing- after an intense or potentially uncomfortable practise , a yin practise a few days later should be ok?
angus> and i will post the yin/yang stuff soon.
Jack> Absolutely!
Jack> And just remember to add those extra breaths during yang practice
angus> cheers jack, and keep me posted on any 'news'. bye!
Jack> to see if that reduces the discomfort and maybe leads to something else! :-)
Jack> Likewise mate!
Jack> bye for now!
Session Close: Sat Feb 05 15:18:25 2005