• ellspeth, Marty, laly, coldsteel, mangagei, canuck75, and Drew join Jack for a disucssion of Echo Effects, chronic pain, counseling, multiple orgasms, prostititis and KSMO practice, and the importance of relaxation when practicing.
• newbie ellspeth reports strong spontaneous abdominal contractions as arousal increases. He wants to hold on to the feelings. Jack suggests that he allow the energy to flow without trying to force it.
• Marty discusses his challenges with chronic pain and his experiences with seeing a counselor.
• coldsteel enters into a discussion with the group on multiple orgasms and the role of the Key Sound in facilitating them. He theorizes that there is a physiological basis as well as an emotional and spiritual basis.
• mangagei discusses his difficulty in making the Key Sound, reporting that his head hurts when doing so. Jack suggests he may be forcing it and suggests a phone coaching session.
• canuck75 questions where KSMO can cause complications if one has prostititis. Jack says it possibly can and suggests he seek help and advice from a medical professional.
• magnagei, Jack, and laly discuss the importance of relaxation and no tension during the practice.

Session Start: Sat Feb 03 12:02:43 2007
Jack> Hi ellspeth!
ellspeth> hello.
ellspeth> how are you?
Jack> I'm well thanks and you?
ellspeth> doing well. my first time here.
Jack> Great! Where (generally) are you typing from?
ellspeth> oregon.
Jack> All riiight! When I'm not up here in Sidney BC, I live in my home of 30 years in Ashland.
Jack> Ok, please understand that
Jack> you are under no obligation at all to answer any question I may ask you. Strictly mutual consent. Only answer
Jack> the questions that you feel ok answering, OK? On the rest, just say "pass" or the like, ok?
ellspeth> ok.
Jack> If comfortable doing so, would you share any or none of the following: your approximate age, marital status, sexual orientation, and what
Jack> motivated you to learn the Multiple Orgasm Trigger?
Jack> And... I am here to answer your questions. :-)
ellspeth> mid 30s, straight male, living with a partner
Jack> ok, thanks! What questions do you have so far, ellspeth?
Jack> Welcome Marty!
ellspeth> i have had some 'accidental' experiences with extended orgasm
Marty> Hell there Jack , and Elspeth
ellspeth> and also i do yoga and meditation and
ellspeth> i'm interested in seeing what's possible.
Marty> an open mind it sounds like !
Jack> ellspeth the yoga and meditation is EXCELLENT preparation for this practice!
Jack> Welcome Marty and coldsteel!
coldsteel> Hello, all.
Marty> ty go ahead
Marty> hiya colsteel
Jack> Meet newbie ellspeth - an Oregonian, mid 30's straight male, living with a partner, first time here - just started the practice.
coldsteel> Jack, what percentage of women do you think enjoy multiples. And, by extension, what fraction of men?
coldsteel> FYI, straight, married x 25 years, 52 y/o
Marty> Hello Ellspeth welcome, i am 29 straigh male in ireland single
Jack> coldsteel, could you pls hold that question for a few? We use the Talking Stick convention here... which means we address one issue at a time - I assure you you will get a turn, meanwhile feel free to join in our conversation with ellspeth who "has the Talking Stick" at the moment i.e., he "has the floor".
Jack> This makes it a lot easier when people read the transcript. :-) THANKS!
Jack> Yeah Marty, I agree about the open mind! :-)
Jack> coldsteel, thanks for your intro details as well!
Jack> And Marty, thanks for yours as well!
coldsteel> ok
Jack> ellspeth - were your accidental experiences before beginning your Multiple Orgasm Trigger Practice?
Jack> Thanks coldsteel - that doesn't mean don't talk - but just address the issue already being discussed before introducing a new one. I hope that's ok with you. :-)
coldsteel> Thanks, no problem. Can you give me three words about the topic on the floor?
coldsteel> (Can't see prior)
ellspeth> can you read this?
Jack> Yes!
ellspeth> connection was acting up. the experiences were prior to mmo.
Jack> coldsteel thanks for your question - ellspeth is just getting started with his questions and comments. Said he'd had
ellspeth> i tried enter a question before, don't think it came through....
Jack> accidental extended orgasm experiences prior to beginning with the Multiple Orgasm Trigger Protocol (what we teach here - aka "MMO" = male multiple orgasm, aka KSMO for Key Sound Multiple Orgasm).
Jack> ell, would you pls repeat your question?
ellspeth> I've been having some success with the protocol
coldsteel> Ok, thanks.
Jack> [y/welcome, coldsteel!]
ellspeth> but one 'technical' thing i find limiting is
Jack> ellspeth, that's GREAT news!
Jack> Yes what is that limitation?
ellspeth> coming up to a peak i automatically do the pelvic curl
ellspeth> and my abdomen tends to start moving in and out quite rapidly
ellspeth> a little like sobbing
ellspeth> i don't know if this is the king of automatic breathing you talk about
ellspeth> but it feels a little tense - i don't
Jack> [nice slip there, ellspeth! - Listen to your subconscious teach you re: the king of automatic breathing!]
ellspeth> get enough air, and so have to back off and a take a deep breath or two
ellspeth> which brings me off the peak. make sense?
Jack> Yes it does, as does your concern, since this is new turf for you.
Jack> Please keep in mind that the purpose of the practice of the MOT protocol is to AWAKEN the AUTOMATIC responses of higher arousal.
Jack> The contractions you're reporting appear to be part of the spontaneous process. I recommend
Jack> that when something like that more or less takes over... please pause the Key Sound and stimulation portion, and just do relaxing breathing, as you intuitively did, and... enjoy the ride!
Jack> Welcome magnagei! Newbie ellspeth has the floor (aka "The Talking Stick") and is describing some very strong SPONTANEOUS abdominal contractions as his arousal level ramps up.
magnagei> hi jack, hi guys, thanks for welcome
Marty> Hi Magnagei
Marty> Jack could it be that ellspeth is trying to hold onto the peak feeling
Marty> ?
Jack> You're quite welcome, magnagei! Ellspeth, Please don't worry about going off peak - this is NOT a linear bee line to multiple orgasms! It's more like a little higher, then a little calmer, then perhaps a little higher still, then a little less, and so on.
Marty> good ok
ellspeth> ok.
Jack> Yeah Marty, I agree, and that is VERY COMMON because THAT'S WHAT WE'RE USED TO! That more or less linear sprint for the orgasmic goal line! :-)
ellspeth> i mean, i should say actually it is multiple orgasms
ellspeth> just short ones. : )
Jack> WAY WAY WAY COOL for a newbie! See what I mean about that yoga and meditation experience prior to beginning this practice? :-)
Marty> if my understanding is right one has to in a way surrender
ellspeth> and I can't help wanting to feel it continuously
coldsteel> The peak-to-valley-to-peak-to-valley ...image is useful.
Jack> Those practices aren't necessary to learn this, but they very often help quite a bit.
Marty> yes meditation is good way to start experiencing this i guess
ellspeth> but relaxation is usually the way forward.
Jack> Yes Marty, and Yes ellspeth!
ellspeth> anyway, that was my question, I cede the floor. : )
Jack> Great coldsteel! Yes it is like that, often with a rising baseline, and yet overall even that baseline will vary up and down. That is actually a more NATURAL pattern for MOST human experience, I think.
coldsteel> Physiologically, yes. But we are socialized and cultured towards the more linear pursuit.
Jack> ellspeth, thanks! Before we pass the Talking Stick to the next person, would you in your own words please summarize what you hear as the answer to your question / concern?
Jack> That
Jack> is it exactly imho coldsteel!
ellspeth> the answer to most questions on this topic... relaxation, being present.
Jack> About 95% of this practice becoming aware of that enculturation effect and how it pushes us towards a linear GO FOR IT tendency, rather than the more Yin pattern of ALLOWING our responses to take us where THEY know we'll want to go.
Jack> Yes ellspeth, I agree.
Jack> Also,
Jack> Always be willing to let this inner thoroughbred racehorse run free when he wants to... loosen the reins and RELAX (as you noted). Remember that your INNER WISDOM KNOWS where and how to take you where you want to and need to go in awakening this response.
Jack> The idea is to do just enough of the conscious practice of the relaxing breathing, single touch caress, and arousal amplifying Key Sound to AWAKEN those SPONTANEOUS responses. When they
Jack> appear as you have described, then pause the stimulation and Key Sound and just do relaxing deep breathing WITHOUT FORCING OR CONSCIOUSLY EXAGERRATING the breathing - the
Jack> idea is to use the Breath to ALLOW yourself to OPEN MORE to the energy that is awakening in you and beginning to flow.
Jack> Does that seem reasonable, ellspeth?
Jack> Still with us, ellspeth?
Jack> (he
Jack> had said that he was having some intermittent web connection issues so he may need to come back in - this will all be in the chat transcript though - no worries!).
coldsteel> Yup.
Marty> ok
Jack> Ok, traditionally we pass the Talking Stick to the next person who arrived, unless somebody has a tight time constraint.
coldsteel> I'm ok.
Marty> no time constraints here
magnagei> same
Marty> was it steel or me?
Jack> Thanks! coldsteel, zat ok with you too? I believe Marty was next in the door (is that correct?) - so Marty you're next.
coldsteel> YOu, Marty.
Marty> ok right
Jack> Ok Marty! How's it going? :-)
Marty> yes i was listening to ellspeth there
Marty> and remembering what i experienced in my last counselling sesion on thurs
Marty> i have alot of physical pain
Marty> and i was really going into this
Marty> and my body moved an squirmed a wriggled
Jack> [that kundalini serpent awakening!]
Marty> this pain in my neck i have all the time but i tend to suppress and ignore it so i can function
Jack> VERY understandable... I'm sorry you have that challenge!
Marty> i need to allow it back into my life
Marty> to allow
Marty> an all teh time my mind is trying to analyze and understand
Marty> control and not show emotion
Marty> i was really shook up when the time ran out
Marty> the cleatr meassage from my body was let me go
Marty> clear
Marty> i stil dont comprehend
Marty> but it was a big step in allowing my body
Marty> to be heard
Jack> YES INDEED! WELL DONE!
Marty> i should mention to the others that i have had no succes in trying KSMO
Marty> and i took jacks advice to see a counsellor
Jack> [Good onya!]
Marty> it was quite an intense experience jack
Marty> i am more curios than ever
Marty> curious
Marty> what on earth is going on iwith me
Marty> the closest i came to describing what i was feeling was like a puppy ebing held by his neck by maybe a mother dog
Marty> but it HURTS
Marty> Hey Laly
Jack> Welcome Laly!
Marty> hey sunshine
Laly> hi ya marty HUGSS
coldsteel> Hi Laly...
Marty> Hugs sweetheart
Laly> sorry forgot time jack
Marty> busy workin i bet
Laly> on drew's tiger i was , yep
Laly> hi magn
Jack> Marty's describing his challenges with chronic pain (neck), and how that's been affecting him emotionally - also he's started seeing a counselor at our suggestion.
Laly> great marty
Jack> Marty, was that your very first counselling session with this counselor?
Marty> been several motnhs actually jack
Marty> no no i have been seeing her for ages
Marty> why i was able to go into myself so much deeper no
magnagei> hi laly
Marty> i think is beacuse of using EFT techniques
Jack> Ah ok!
Jack> Marty, Brother Pan is also a very good ally re: KSMO practice and chronic pain.
Marty> emotional freedom techniques i heard on the radio an checked up online
Marty> ok
Marty> good to know
Jack> BTW, Pan is also quite expert with EFT (among an array of other healing techniques!)
Jack> .
Marty> cool
Marty> you are familiar
Marty> i only found a few little things but wow
Laly> i am0 regarding EFT
Marty> i have been so much more able to be with myself rather than reactionary and in my ideas and analyses
Jack> Yeah he was in a scary car wreck when he was 19 and has had often-severe chronic pain ever since. KSMO practice, along with other modalities, has given him a great deal of relief - and oh yeah - multiple orgasms! :-)
Marty> osrry Lally i meant Jack
Marty> lol
Marty> cool
Laly> (is ok marty, )
Jack> What were the few little WOW things you found, Marty?
Marty> scary car crash hmmm i had an accident in a tractor ...
Jack> hmmm indeed!
Marty> its not so much wow things its just
magnagei> emotions stay stuck in cells and often cause chronic pain
Jack> Have you ever had your neck area medically evaluated for structural injury?
Marty> the tractor an i rolled over !!! but ..anyway i walked away to neightbour
Jack> very good point, magnagei!
magnagei> but obviously not always the case
Jack> WOW Marty!!!
Jack> IMHO that also counts as a near-death experience!
Marty> yes i was quite shocked
Laly> ouch marty ..sounds scary to me *tears up.
Marty> tractor structure hled up it was brand new!
Marty> re neck yes i went to a chiopractor but i have the impression they were wrong for me
Jack> Marty one thing I'd recommend is that you do a Forum post the Chronic Pain discussion and give a shout out to Pan... I think he could be a great support person for you.
Marty> i went 7 times
Marty> then she said she cant help me go to accupuncturist
Jack> Did you ever get an xray of the area (or whatever they use these days)?
Marty> nope no xray
Laly> mri jack.
coldsteel> MRI
Jack> Thanks laly :-)
Jack> and coldsteel! :-)
Marty> no nothin of the kind
Laly> .
Marty> i didn't feel bad after it at all
Marty> as with alot of whiplash caes i think
Marty> cases
Jack> Marty, I think you should consider an MRI re: the neck at least, and whole body if feasible. That was a SERIOUS accident! Not to mention the EMOTIONAL aspects of it!!!
coldsteel> I agree. As a healthcare professional, this strikes me as an anatomic problem that can be seen and addressed.
Marty> yes maybe - i feel i am making good progress with counsellor
coldsteel> Marty, can you describe the specifics of the symproms.
coldsteel> symptoms.
Marty> and the body will atleast reveal the emotional side that will be great
Jack> Counselling helps the heart and the mind, sometimes you also need to address the physical structure.
Laly> very true Jack.
Jack> Thanks for steppin up here, coldsteel!
coldsteel> Sure.
magnagei> mri is a good idea, but sometimes they won't find anything and chronis pain will persist
Marty> i have been to chiropractor and osteopath and accupuncturist
Marty> i trust they would have sent me further if they thought it was more structural then emotional
coldsteel> Not necessarily.
magnagei> if you are willing i'd suggest a craniosacral therapist, they are good at finding specific trauma events and releasing them, also the emotional side of the trauma
coldsteel> Please describe the precise location and the characterer of the pain. Chararter--burning, like a knife, dull, etc.
Marty> thanks magnagei i know someone arleady
coldsteel> (i'm a better physician than a typist.)
Marty> well steel
Marty> right hand side back of neck
Marty> there is a spasm with it
Marty> not always painfull
coldsteel> Any electric-shock like radiation down your arm?
Marty> there is a spasm that can be 3 secs between and sometimes stronger sometimes weaker
Marty> no shock
Marty> no not as dramatic
magnagei> if there is a spasm then there is damaged muscle, maybe that's not the whole problem but part of it
Marty> but it - the spasm is really full body
coldsteel> Tell me about touching your chin to either shoulder.
coldsteel> Can you turn your head ninety degrees to touch your chin to your left and to your right shoulder?
Marty> there is a temnsion in my right jaw but its not painful
Marty> my r shoyulder hasd a pain tho
Marty> ow
Marty> turning right hurts
Marty> and left hurts too
Marty> no
Marty> i cant really
coldsteel> The following is pure speculation and is not a substitute for an examination and an opinion by a qualified healthcare provider.
coldsteel> The vertebral column (spine) is stabilized in three general ways. (1) the interveterbral discs; (2) ligaments and (3) muscles.
Laly> (yeah- can sense it myself marty)
Marty> sure
coldsteel> At a guess, you sustained a ligamentous injury. The compensatory response is to try to use muscle power to substitute. This leads often to chronic pain as you describe.
Marty> aha
magnagei> sorry for interrupting, but what about fascia?
Marty> fascia ? please explain
coldsteel> What is called the prevertebral fascia is more ligamentous than anything else. You're right to mention it.
Marty> wher is it
magnagei> fascia is connective tissue that keeps EVERYTHING in place
Marty> wb laly
Laly> thanks
Marty> ok
Marty> humm
magnagei> it surounds and separates all nerves, blood vessels, muscles, etc
Marty> certainly relief form the pain i have had would make me a new man
coldsteel> The point is that neither examination nor, for that matter, ordinary Xrays or even CT scans will demonstrate the ligamentous injury.
Marty> ah
Marty> so how
coldsteel> MRI is sort of necessary to see and evaluate the problem.
coldsteel> What part of the country do you live in?
Marty> aahh
Marty> i am in irelan
coldsteel> What part?
Marty> ireland
Marty> wicklow
coldsteel> I spent 6 mos in Dublin as a junior registrar many years ago.
Marty> you know ireland?
coldsteel> Ok, you're within driving distance of Dublin, then.
Marty> ah yes i am not too far away from dublin
coldsteel> Fols to go see are at the Beaumont Hospital.
coldsteel> Folks
Jack> Here's a link to a photo of that general area (searched Google on prevertebral fascia drawing) http://www.radiographicceu.com/article29.html
Marty> Thanks Coldsteel
Laly> thanks- check that out later, compu. acting funny right now.
Marty> hmm mro could go on healthinsurance i guess
Marty> MRI costs i mean
coldsteel> The Beaumont is the successor to the Richmond.
Marty> i know it
Jack> Thank you for your generosity of spirit in sharing (informally of course) your expertise, coldsteel... YOU ROCK DOC!
coldsteel> Of course there are costs to MRI. But there are costs to not getting treatment.
Marty> Coldsteel sounds like a surgeons name
coldsteel> Best way to heal is with cold steel...
Jack> Yep that sounds like a surgeon to me! :-)
Marty> and there are costs to gettin ineffective treatment lol
coldsteel> (I know, unpopular position on this forum.)
Jack> How about WARM steel, Doc? :-)
Laly> hmmm.. i -- well ii wont go there coldsteel ..will keep my mouth shut on that.
coldsteel> So if I were you, I would wander up to the Beaumont and try to get into the spine clinic there.
Marty> Thanks all i have gained lots of support from all of you
Laly> hey LUV we care bout you ya know .
Laly> (i do anyway lol)
Marty> sure thing coldsteel - somehow it had crossed my mind before now - and you are <actually reinforcing an image that has come to me recently
Jack> We have a big tent here, Doc. Personally, I believe in being open to a multidisciplinary approach - sometimes steel is what's necessary - sometimes the only thing. Not sure how cold steel can mend a broken heart (emotionally that is), but I haven't read all of the literature. :-)
Marty> Thanks Laly you to sugar
coldsteel> It can't Jack. we can only set the stage for healing. Up to the patient and his/her deity to accomplish the task.
Jack> Wow that's a VERY cool awareness Marty! That your body wisdom was sending you a picture of the additional help it needed!
Jack> We on the same page, Doc! :-)
Marty> yes the MRI scanner had been in my mind for what ever reason
Jack> Marty please give your subconsious a LOT of credit for that!
Marty> yes i rock !
Marty> ok i fel i can pass on the talking stick thanks all
Jack> Wow Marty, that is EXCELLENT WORK you are doing today. That is what this chat is all about!
[magnagei:#Multiple_orgasm_how IMAGE] EMOTIONS/smile.gif do whatever you need to get some relief
Jack> I really applaud your emotional openness and your willingness to share so deeply. Begorra!
Marty> quite right Magnagei relief has to be the feeling need most
Marty> i am so exhausted from this pain
coldsteel> I can well appreciate that, marty.
Marty> completely drained..ok
Jack> I am VERY pleased that you're willing to take those steps to Beaumont, as part of your healing path!
Laly> well..take the time to relax marty k.
Jack> WAY good suggestion imho, Laly!
Laly> (also sending healing energy your way)
Marty> i wish i could... hing is i cant let go
Jack> And Marty, I'd say continue to keep the KSMO practice on hold until you get some more info from Beaumont.
Marty> oh yes that also is clear to me jack
Jack> Attaboy!
Jack> EASY DOES IT! EH?
Jack> :-)
magnagei> laly if you don't mind me asking, do you practice any specific type of healing energy (reiki, quantum touch) or just the innate intuitive healing of every human?
Marty> yep ok... moving on ? if anyone else wants
Jack> Ironically Marty, by doing that, imho you are RIGHT ON PROTOCOL, cuz protocol clearly calls for NOT DRIVING WITH THE OIL LIGHT ON!
Laly> started in quantum touch magn- but have been told have natural and innate ability for it.
Jack> Pain is one of our body's oil lights.
Jack> esp. chronic pain.
Marty> sure Jack like teh analogy
magnagei> cool
Jack> Thanks!
Jack> Hey guess who's next for the Talking Stick!
Laly> i feel marty;s pain and it's making me weep.
Marty> i reckon i will releas ewhen all comes together Laly
Laly> yes you will marty.
Jack> Yeah or maybe even a little sooner than you might expect.
Marty> maybe - is it steels turn ?
Jack> Especially as males, our culture often tries to con us into thinking it's not ok to weep when you're hurt.
Marty> i think i must go - suppertime here
Jack> Ok, Marty THANK YOU FOR SHARING OF YOURSELF SO AUTHENTICALLY! Please keep us posted!
Jack> See you in the Forum!
Marty> ok Jack thanks many thanks all round
Marty> bye now
Marty> And thanks Coldsteel
coldsteel> Good luck...
Laly> bye marty .
Marty> sure
Jack> bye for now Marty!
Marty> bye
Marty> for now
magnagei> bye marty best of luck
Jack> Ok coldsteel you have the Talking Stick. How may we help you today?
coldsteel> Looking for a few reflections about culture versus physiology re: orgasms, single and multiple.
Jack> What are you seeing so far?
coldsteel> Background on me, fyi, as above, happily married for 25 years, and spouse has enjoyed multiples for a long time. Sort of accidentally stumbled into my own multiples (happily)
Jack> Great!
coldsteel> and became more interested in what the (male) capacity really is for multiples.
coldsteel> So let me ask--and all jump in as appropriate--what fraction of women do you think enjoy multiples, and what fraction of men?
Jack> Doc, I don't have those numbers right off the top of my head. It would be very helpful if you'd post that ? to the Forum and meanwhile I'll ck with my
magnagei> men? haha, none unless they are tantric masters or know of jack's technique
Laly> well..imho - i dont think many women experience single orgasms, let alone multiples.
magnagei> except for maybe a super duper small lucky percentage
coldsteel> Laly, unhappily, I think you are correct.
Jack> colleagues in the American Assn of Sexuality Educators Counselors and Therapists for a path to the data.
Laly> i know so coldsteel
coldsteel> As you know, Laly, at the turn of the (20th) century, inducing orgasms in women was a medical procedure--women went to physicians to have stimulation to orgasm.
magnagei> really? wow that's a shame, what percent?
Laly> i think was less than 25% magn
coldsteel> There is a wonderful book by Rachel Maines entitled The Technology or Orgasm...fascinating historical read.
coldsteel> of, not or
Jack> It covers what daterange, coldsteel?
coldsteel> Pre 1900 to about 1990. IO think it was her Master's Thesis or Ph.D> Thesis.
Jack> Interesting slip, doc... esp since the Multiple Orgasm Trigger Protocol is low-tech. :-)
Laly> :-).
coldsteel> Some time ago--beginning in my pre-marraige, multiple lover days--I noticed that women's experience of multiples involved some specific breathing patterns.
Jack> coldsteel have you ever queried Medscape or the like about empirical stats on that? Dr. Beverly Whipple at Rutgers (now Emeritus Prof) probably has numbers on that.
Laly> There are still women AND men to this day when orgasms are mentioned
magnagei> less than 25 HAVE orgasms? please tell me you meant less than 25 don't have orgasms
Laly> 25 percent of women magn- yes
coldsteel> There are unfortunately many anorgasmic (preorgasmic) women.
Laly> less than that
Jack> Part of the challenge in getting good data on this re: men is that for men orgasm and ejaculation are often conflated and that really skews the data.
coldsteel> 25 percent may not be too far off the mark. The availability of modern vibrators has helped bring the number down, of course. But there are still many.
coldsteel> Agree, Jack. I was going to get to that point in a moment.
Jack> Yes please!
Laly> i would have included myself in that 25% magn.
Laly> BEFORE KSMO.
magnagei> i also wonder what generation these stats are from
coldsteel> My sense was with women that path to multiples involved changing their breathing pattern for about 90 sec, allowing their orgasm to flow away--but only so far--and then with sudden resumption of stimulation, they could quickly recover a very intense orgasm.
magnagei> i tend to think that nowadays, girls have orgasms more often
coldsteel> Maybe, but learning multiples is a challenge for both sexes.
Laly> i am not so sure on that magnm but that's my opinion.
magnagei> oh absolutely in agreement
Jack> I agree, coldsteel.
magnagei> learning to relax is infinitely hard
coldsteel> There was very little literature on this until last few years.
Laly> i never saw it as a CHALLENGE jack .
magnagei> you may be right laly, i can't say for sure but it seems that nowadays people are more open to sex than they ever were
Jack> careful about that cognitive trap, magna - infinitely puts it out of reach!
Laly> yes- attitudes about sex HAS changed I will agree on that.
magnagei> cognitive trap? i get your gist, but what exactly do you mean by that
Jack> The way you use language to frame experience may tend to impede your ability to experience more.
Laly> but I do see more and more teens having kids now more than ever.
coldsteel> Attitudes are better, problems persist. And language can be a substantial problem.
Jack> In these chats you'll often see where I invite someone to say again what they just said and notice how they feel, then restate it without the negative/absolute and notice the EMOTIONAL shift.
Jack> Some say that's NLP but they got it from Dr. Milton Erickson.
Jack> As did I.
Jack> :-)
Jack> We can talk more about it in a bit, for now coldsteel has the Talking Stick... coldsteel it was my impression that you may have had more to say on the issue of percentages etc.,
coldsteel> I didn't want to persist except to say that the conventional wisdom was that women have the capacity for multiples, men did not, and as you point out this all has to do with the link between orgasm and ejaculation.
Jack> including addressing that issue re: males of the tendency (even among sex "experts"!) to conflate orgasm and ejaculation and how that may affect the data on male ORGASM.
magnagei> ok that about explains it, good for now thanks jack
coldsteel> Great minds think and type alike...
Jack> [y/w magna!]
Jack> Wow, thanks Doc!
Jack> :-)
Laly> yes they do coldsteel.
Jack> [blush]
coldsteel> So the question becomes why KS->MO?
Laly> why what?
Jack> What are your thoughts about that thus far, coldsteel?
coldsteel> Why Key Sound facilitates multiple orgasms...
Jack> Curious about your thoughts / hypotheses about that.
coldsteel> My sense is that there is not only an emotional and spiritual basis, buit also a physiologic basis...
coldsteel> Breathing modulates many things, but especially modulates the chemistry of the brain and pheipheral nervous system.
coldsteel> preipheral...
coldsteel> peripheral...
Jack> Yes I do agree that there seems to be a very definite physiological basis.
coldsteel> And I wonder whether the KS actually is gaining a deeper control of the way the brain is modulating its own activity.
Laly> control? hmmm
Jack> It has to do in part with the depth of the tone when the Key Sound is articulated correctly.
Jack> Yes that is a VERY interesting hypothesis as well, Doc!
Jack> re: the modulation of brain activity.
Laly> coldsteel may i say something here?
coldsteel> Both orgasm and (in the male) ejaculation become self-sustaining at some trigger threshold--with enough stimulation, they occur.
coldsteel> Sure, Laly...
Laly> once a person has learned how to use KS sucessfully to achieve single or multiple orgasms
Laly> then they dont necessarily need to DO the KS or stimulate to achieve the orgasms the next time.
coldsteel> Understood. KS can be viewed as a training strategy. But the brain imprints.
magnagei> so this is a permanent change in our nervous system, this ability to feel full body bliss
Jack> imho stimulation as the path to orgasm is overrated.
coldsteel> I think this is a matter of facilitation.
Laly> ok- i get that part colsteel, thanks.
Jack> To me the purpose of the Key Sound and the Multiple Orgasm Trigger Protocol is to learn how to AWAKEN the response. To give our conscious mind a copy of the map,
coldsteel> Women who use a vibrator often find it easier to experience orgasm during intercourse or other forms of play.
Jack> that we were born with, but that is obscured by a cultural overlay.
coldsteel> To tell our conscious mind that a map exists.
coldsteel> Precisely.
Jack> May I speak to that tone issue for a moment?
coldsteel> But I think the breathing changes the chemitry in a way that allows orgasm and ejaculation to uncouple.
coldsteel> Sure...
Jack> Yes I would agree.
Jack> re: the breath changing chemistry.
magnagei> i agree coldsteel, ejaculating is always cuopled with tense muscles and shallow breathing
Jack> Therefore, to DEcouple the two reflexes, I started building the Protocol by exploring the OPPOSITE of what most others were doing!
Jack> And especially what was customary for most males who typically experience orgasm coupled with ejaculation.
Jack> But there is also another imho important component hypothesis:
coldsteel> Okay...
Jack> That is, that there exists in men, just as there does in women, an INHERENT multiorgasmic response capability.
Jack> Proceeding on the basis of that working hypothesis,
Jack> the question then became - how to we access or AWAKEN this inherent response?
Jack> First part was to include in the Protocol - doing the OPPOSITE of what for men is typical, which,
coldsteel> So the question---is the coupling of orgasm to ejaculation a default that has to be unlearned? Or is it something learned accidentally?
Jack> as magnagei noted, is typically shallow rapid breathing, and high muscle tension, among other components.
Jack> That's a little bit tricky turf, but I think it largely IS enculturation rather than a natural physiological default.
coldsteel> I think that sorting out those two alternatives is important.
Jack> That goes to the issue of AROUSAL and how someone in any given cultural learns or is taught either directly or indirectly how to increase AROUSAL.
Jack> Yes I think it's vitally essential to sort them!
coldsteel> I think the problem is the absence of teaching, actually.
Jack> And WHAT is being taught or modelled.
Laly> i agree.
Jack> e.g., most of the teaching for women (other than e.g. in neo-tantric circles) is based on high stimulation models.
coldsteel> I was very fortunate that my frst partner/lover was considerably older than me.
coldsteel> And proportionately experienced.
magnagei> maybe i'm underestimating the power of enculturalation, but wouldn't MMOs be much more quickly achieved if it were that and not physiological?
Jack> As I said previously, I think stimulation is highly overrated. By that I mean direct stimulation, e.g. of the genitals or other erogenous zones.
Jack> Yes coldsteel! That to me goes to the enculturation and modelling issue.
Laly> direct 'prolonged' stimulation u mean jack?
Jack> Yes.
coldsteel> Magna, primacy in learning is very powerful. If (males especially) are learning that the purpose of stimulation is to trigger orgasm and that pleasure, the behavior will be to do so as quickly as possible rather than find ways to sustain the pleasure.
Laly> (wanted to clarify cause pfd file does mention some stim)
Jack> The fact that, once someone has learned to AWAKEN the multiorgasmic response by using the MOT Protocol, they frequently report that they don't need ANY stimulation at all.
Jack> coldsteel, I agree and it can be taken to extremes,
coldsteel> AGain, conscious control of brain responses.
Jack> where for men it's by some seen as too girlie to go slowly, etc. Studly dudes GO FOR IT!
coldsteel> Well, I need to go see a few patients. Time for me to pass the stick and, unfortunately, to log off.
magnagei> ok i gotcha, but then i wonder....did earlier humans have multiples?
Jack> coldsteel, I hope you'll return to our chats, and that when your time/energy permits, you'll post to our forum. I really value dialogue with an open-minded medical pro!
Laly> have not read or heard anything on that myself magn.
coldsteel> FYI Jack, I sent you some comments and suggestions about the vbulletin.
magnagei> some say the sound response is natural, in women it clearly is, but in men it's very supressed, and deep breathing SHOULD be natural, but in modern times we are very tense people
coldsteel> My email address ends in _md
Jack> Ok, THANKS! I'll check that out!
magnagei> take care coldsteel
coldsteel> Sent two days or so ago, when you sent the inquiry.
Laly> have a great day coldsteel (hugs).
Jack> I think the dialogue we've all been having on this today, and continuing it, will make for some very valuable wiki articles for the Orgasm Wiki.
Jack> Coldsteel is a real gem!
Laly> he sounds like it jack.
Jack> Just met the guy, but his spirit does indeed come through, as well as his intellect and his... book-learnin :-)
Laly> oh yeah- really kicked my -occupational thinking in
Jack> Magnagei, I believe you now have the Talking Stick! It's been a while since we've chatted. How goes your practice? And how may we help?
magnagei> yes it has been a while, to be honest i haven't practice in a long time
magnagei> but i really feel that this is something i need to do
Laly> (hi canuck HUGSS)
magnagei> hi there canuck
Jack> Welcome back canuck75! Magnagei is just taking up the Talking Stick.
canuck75> hey Laly
canuck75> Hey Jack
Jack> That's quite all right, magnagei... I really respect your following
Jack> your intuition and INNER PROMPTINGS about when may be a good time for you to take a next step.
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Jack> What questions do you have?
magnagei> well my first one is pretty simple, sometimes when i do the keysound my head hurts, does this mean i'm forcing it too much?
magnagei> i still think that one of my main problems is not making the sound correctly
canuck75> do you work out magnagei?
magnagei> i can make it sound like the audio seminar, but it feels forced
magnagei> i do a little bit of tai chi (just starting) and a little bit of rebounding
canuck75> I was having a similiar problem and discovered that it was do to lifting too much weight at the gym
Laly> is your head relaxed or tensed up when you practice?
canuck75> whenever I did the keysound and KSMO I felt like my head was going to explode
magnagei> well i'm laying down so hopefully relaxed, but it may be tense and not noticing
Jack> If it feels forced, magnagei, then it probably is... That hurting head is an example of that analogy of the oil light coming on when you're driving a car.
magnagei> well i don't lift weights, i doubt it's my exercising because it's all low impact
canuck75> sorry, just a though
canuck75> thought
magnagei> don't be sorry
canuck75> tx
Jack> Very good point, canuck re: straining during workouts. Also magnagei, it's easy especially in the beginning to think that the Key Sound directly MAKES the Echo Effects happen,
Laly> have you tired to let the KS come naturally out.
Jack> which may lead to a tendency to force the Key Sound louder, etc.
Laly> (tried)
magnagei> well to me it seems like it's not exactly a natural sound to make
magnagei> i don't know how to really let it out naturally
Jack> My first recommendation would be a short phone coaching session with me so I can help you
canuck75> it didn't feel natural for me in the beginning, but as you move forward into ksmmo it begins to feel natural
Jack> correctly calibrate your articulation of the Key Sound. That can be a HUGE time- and frustration-saving step in the process.
magnagei> well how much does that cost, money is a real issue at this time, but i do agree that it would be a good idea
Jack> Another slam dunk for canuck! Good one!
Jack> It would take about ten minutes - about $20 or so.
canuck75> tx Jack
Jack> I ask you to demo the Key Sound (no stim, etc. just the KS),
Jack> then I give you a few pointers, and I demo it for you, then have you repeat back - we
Jack> do that a little bit to help it become more comfortable and familiar for you.
Jack> i.e., it's about the cost of a large pizza.
Jack> Are you worth a large pizza? :-)
magnagei> heheh
Laly> (giggles)
Jack> :-)
magnagei> i've been trying not to eat cheese lately
magnagei> do you pay through the website?
Jack> Paypal or credit/debit card - get the details from you when we talk. Details: http://www.multiples.com/orgasmcoach...mcoaching.html
Jack> We set a time, you send me your phone number and I call you since I use skype.com webphone so that makes it a free or very low cost call.
Jack> Your only investment is going without that one pizza (hold the cheese).
Jack> And your time and energy of course. :-)
Jack> I recommend it, since your intuition is saying that you could prolly use a tune up. You could waste a lot of time and energy
Jack> and get frustrated or discouraged without that little bit of direct feedback.
magnagei> ok i do agree with the above but i will have to think about it
Jack> What is it about what I said that you have to think about?
Jack> If there is some issue about it that you don't want to discuss here, please email me about it.
magnagei> oh i agree with what you said, i just have tot hink about the cost
magnagei> nope no issue, simply a cost issue
magnagei> i'm in school now for massage therapy
Jack> That's another one of those reframes: Think about the cost, versus think about the investment.
Jack> Learning this skill will give you an edge that few people have in that practice!
Jack> Because of the understanding of your own body and of that of others that it will give you.
magnagei> here's soemthing interesting that i just noticed, i did a ks and my head hurt
magnagei> and i realized that my temporalis and suboccipitals were tensed
Jack> I'll bet you've invested more than $20 in the massage therapy training.
Laly> great magn!! way to take note of that!!
magnagei> when i am conscious about relaxing them it goes away
Jack> Excellent!
Jack> That is the power of directing your awareness.
Jack> By allowing yourself to become MORE AWARE of a certain tension, that already can begin to change it.
Jack> Same is true for the Key Sound.
magnagei> wow i never realized my temporalis was SO ridicously tight
Jack> That is a HUGE INSIGHT!
Jack> WAY TO GROW!
magnagei> thnks
Jack> For that I'd recommend doing some slow relaxing breathing and imagine directing that relaxation breath right into those tense areas.
Laly> yep/
magnagei> wow that really does help
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Jack> As this happens, you may begin noticing some emotions beginning to surface as well.
magnagei> also the idea popped into my head that i just realized, i tense this muscle when i poop and ejaculate
Jack> That's all a natural part of this learning process.
magnagei> emotions/memories yes
Jack> If some relaxing breathing helps relieve the tension of those feelings and emotions, that is really great!
Jack> If that practice does not bring relief re: those emotions and sensations, then at least some short-term assistance
Jack> from a COMPETENT and PROPERLY TRAINED professional counselor would be very worthwhile.
Jack> eh Laly?
Jack> :-)
Laly> yeah Jack
magnagei> i'm not really into that to be honest
Laly> magn- neither was I
magnagei> i'd rather see a somatoemotional or eft therapist
canuck75> I've come through a similar thing of trying to learn to relax
Jack> As long as they are COMPETENT, magnagei.
magnagei> but i guess they are properly trained proffesionals, just in a different scope
canuck75> I found that I needed massage therapy which helped me relax
Jack> It depends on the individual. They can talk a good game but may still be incompetent. Or they may actually be able to help you.
Laly> i see a NLP therapist (neuro linguistist practitioner)
canuck75> had several knots in my back that were keeping my muscles tensed all the time
Jack> How did you resolve that, canuck75?
canuck75> and keeping me from fully relaxing into KSMO
magnagei> i'm of the belief that emotions are not just thought patterns, but also trapped inside the bodies cells and energy systems
Jack> I agree 100%
Jack> .
canuck75> I had to go for massage therapy for a month straight
canuck75> once a week
Laly> me too magn
Jack> GOOD FOR YOU! Way to give yourself the Gift of Healing, canuck!
Laly> that is where the quantum touch and meditation comes in for me.
canuck75> ya tell me about it
Jack> And you too Laly, natcherly!
magnagei> so i like things like eft and somatoemotional release (offshoot of craniosacral)
magnagei> because often i think those practitioners are not as intesnely trained, but they are incredibly compassionate
magnagei> and they use tools to get to the root of the problem
Jack> That's fine imho - just please pay attention to your intuition about any specific individual's ability to help you.
magnagei> of course
Jack> Just makin' sure, Brother. :-)
magnagei> i'm entering into that feild, the field of alternative healing
magnagei> eventually once i feel more emotionally free, i plan to enter into the emotional realm of it too
magnagei> i think KSMO will really help in getting there
Jack> I agree.
Laly> :-).
Jack> The thing is, KSMO brings the issues to the surface - it MAY help resolve some of them - but that depends on how deep the wounds are.
magnagei> great, if i can bring the deep unconscious issues to the surface, i can use eft on them
Jack> That's what we refer to as the emotional furballs.
Jack> If your self-treatment gets the job done, that's great. If it doesn't, please call on professionally competent allies to get the healing help you need AND DESERVE.
magnagei> i'm sure there's a good couple there
magnagei> maybe i really will look into that, and i like how you used the word allies
Jack> Call on all the help you need to be successful.
magnagei> some people who i talk to or read the work of talk about not the patient and pracitioner, but just 2 people part of the healing team
Jack> It's a team effort for sure, ideally, but it's not just two mooks off the street corner.
Jack> :-)
canuck75> Hey Jack, I have a question for you but things seem to be busy, can I email you later?
Jack> Balance in all things. :-)
magnagei> if you are in a time restraint go ahead canuck
magnagei> unless you want ti private
Jack> canuck, thank you for your patience! Do you have enough time to ask now?
canuck75> no, I didn't want to bud in
magnagei> i don't mind
canuck75> ya I do, just didnt' want to interrupt
Jack> It's not butting in...
canuck75> I had a question regarding the prostate and KSMO effect on it
Jack> You have as much right as anyone else here to have your timeslice, canuck! :-)
Jack> Yes what is your question?
canuck75> since I was a teenager I've had a bacterial infection of the prostate and I've noticed that since practicing KSMO that my prostate seems to be more active
Jack> and thanks magnagei for your graciousness in passing the Talking Stick to canuck!
canuck75> shoot, trying to figure out how to phrase the question
Jack> What do you mean by more active?
Jack> More volume or what?
canuck75> just wondering of KSMO can cause further complications with prostititus?
canuck75> secretion
canuck75> when urinating
canuck75> by more active I mean by secretions and, like now I can feel a tingling
Jack> If your prostate is not healthy, the KSMO could potentially be counterproductive. KSMO is NOT a cure-all.
canuck75> ah, could be counter productive, how so?
Jack> More secretions esp during practice or when the waves happen even between sessions - is not uncommon.
Jack> Counterproductive in that if your prostate has some undiagnosed or untreated condition, then that should be addressed
Jack> by professional help who is properly trained to address it. What is your age?
canuck75> it's been diagnosed but they can't treat it
canuck75> 30
Jack> diagnosed as bacterial or something in addition to that?
canuck75> I believe I got it camping as a teenager and drinking unfiltered water from a lake
canuck75> ya bacterial
Jack> I am VERY sorry to hear that! Is your prostate enlarged or anything like that?
canuck75> no not enlarged, but it has bacterial infection
canuck75> every now and then I get pains because the prostrate is trying to squeeze the infection out
Jack> Right, got that. What do the medicals recommend? Do they say continue to have it checked every X months, or goodbye and good luck?
canuck75> goodbye goodluck
canuck75> I think it could be treated but they don't know how too
magnagei> sorry to interrupt, but i am noticing a cognitive trap by you jack, you are saying sorry, not "i have empathy for", sorry implies that you did something wrong
Jack> What do they say about being sexual? Especially re: risk of transmitting to a partner esp when not using a condom.
magnagei> i just used sorry, but that because i interrupted
canuck75> they've said nothing
Jack> Have you asked yet?
canuck75> but I was sexually active with a girl who had a yeast infection and I think it spread to me
Jack> sexually active without protection?
canuck75> so on top of the bacterial I'm trying to fight candida as well, or it could be all the same thing
canuck75> ya, we were together for three years and engaged
Jack> Were you too aware that she had a yeast infection?
Jack> two not too.
canuck75> no
canuck75> didn't know yeast could spread
Jack> Oh yeah!
canuck75> ya found that out alot later
Jack> First, I think it's vitally important for you to find a COMPASSIONATE and skilled physician who can give you an opinion about
canuck75> ya that's true, hard to find around here
canuck75> doctors around here are brutal
Jack> whether or not when you want to have kids there may be risk of transmitting that pernicious bacterium to a partner.
canuck75> good point
canuck75> are there treatments to completely rid the body of the bacterium that you know of?
magnagei> just to drop my opinion, candida is often caused by the lack of good bacteria in the system, and to fight bacteria there is nothing better than strong immune system
canuck75> I'm taking probiotics everyday and I use oregano oil as well
Jack> That's a VERY big deal. It sucks, but it's a challenge that you're faced with. It's really important to know if you can have kids if you want, or even unprotected sex - even with the love of your life - without transmitting that lake bacterium.
canuck75> haven't had a cold since June
canuck75> ya I have an appointment in April
canuck75> with the Dr.
Jack> I don't know what bacterium it is your dealing with, and am not qualified to comment on treating bacteria. I AM qualified to recommend that you
magnagei> but you are sure the prostate infection is still ther?
Jack> ask that question of the Doc when you meet with him or her.
canuck75> ya it's still there
magnagei> well since you are open to alternative therapies, maybe you should research fasting and colon cleansing
canuck75> hmmm, well thank you all for your help. You reaffirmed what I was thinking
magnagei> nothing better than that to boost the immune system
canuck75> ya I've thought about that
canuck75> I know I have to fast from sugar and alcohol
canuck75> how long do you do that for?
Jack> RE: The brutality of the local docs, You have a RIGHT to be treated with RESPECT and yes, even COMPASSION. It can be a very good exercise in SELF CARE to ask them to treat you with respect and compassion. If they refuse or ridicule (shame) you, then seek another practitioner.
Laly> fasting? i did it for 2 days
magnagei> checkout hps-online.com
magnagei> i'm a member of the community there, it's great stuff
Jack> Fasting can be tricky stuff. It's very individual.
Jack> I'd like to stay on this issue of safER sex protection a little longer.
canuck75> stress affects me as well
magnagei> if you are interested in fasting with guidance and a support community
Laly> yes i agree jack- but armed with proper info- can work.
magnagei> i'm actually going to disagree, with proper guidance pretty much anyone in decent health can do this program
Jack> First, I think it is vitally important for you to find out from a GOOD physician (or two! - second opinion with something SO important is prudent, imho)
Jack> to get a clear assessment of the risk of transmissibility of that bacterium to a sexual partner.
Laly> k- i agree on that jack,
canuck75> yes I will
Jack> I would also recommend that no matter how casual or how committed your relationship may be with a sexual partner, it is important for you to INFORM them of this condition, and
Jack> give THEM all the information YOU have about it (including what you learn from those Docs when you talk to them). I also
canuck75> we are no longer together and I don't plan on having sex for a long time
canuck75> yes I will
Jack> recommend that you ALWAYS use a condom when having sex with someone. There may also be some medication or herbal or whatever that should go INside the condom to
canuck75> wow, didn't know that
Jack> REDUCE the risks. For that I recommend you consult with someone who is EXPERT about safER (that's about all we can hope for - safER) sex such as a Nurse Practitioner, Physician's Assistant, or even a Sexuality Educator, but someone who has THOROUGH training
Jack> in helping you reduce the risk of transmission to a partner.
Jack> A good place to start for a referral is www.aasect.org -
canuck75> tx jack and magnagei for the sites
canuck75> good info
Jack> the American Association of Sexualtiy Educators Counselors and Therapists - call them and tell them I sent ya! :-) Ask them for help in locating someone qualified to advise you.
canuck75> i will tx
Jack> You are very welcome! Also, when you talk with your health practitioner in April,
Jack> share with a copy of the Multiple Orgasm Trigger Protocol pdf and ask them if that kind of practice,
Jack> which does NOT involve BLOCKING ejaculation present any concerns re: your prostate health. As a lay person I doubt that of itself it would, when practiced as specified, i.e.,
Jack> without forcing, without trying to hold back ejaculation (which can cause irritation or inflammation of the seminal vesicles, etc.), but which may, during increasing
Jack> arousal result in an increase in emission of prostatic fluid.
canuck75> very good point
canuck75> I will ask him
Jack> That's great! Also please feel free to give him my contact information. I will be very happy to answer any questions
Jack> about this practice - at no charge.
canuck75> sounds good, I will do that
canuck75> Thanks again for the information and your help
Jack> Good onya, eh... :-)
canuck75> lol
Jack> Looks like you may be in Canada, what part if I may ask?
canuck75> You've all given me some good questions and info
canuck75> Southwestern Ontario
canuck75> 3.5 hours from Toronto
canuck75> Sarnia, just at the bottom of lake Huron
Jack> brrr. :-) I'm in Metchosin BC today, and there's a wee chill here as well. :-)
canuck75> lol
Jack> Hey Neighbor!
canuck75> it's friggin cold here
canuck75> I hate snow
Laly> lol- here too ya all.
canuck75> I'm more American I think than Canadian
canuck75> I've been to Cali in Feb. and loved
canuck75> would love to immigrate to California
canuck75> lol
Jack> Well I'm originally from California, and I'm hoping to immigrate up here!
canuck75> really?
canuck75> don't do it
canuck75> lol
Jack> Why not???
Jack> :-)
canuck75> I shouldn't say that
canuck75> BC is a great place
magnagei> dang i wanna goto cali, all the good stuff is there it seems
canuck75> I'm just a big fan of Cali
Jack> re: shouldn't say... Yeah, we're being tapped.
Jack> Yeah it can be fun!
Jack> Well anyway, good on ya for taking in all of this input,
Jack> and sharing with us something that is such a challenge for you.
canuck75> Thanks Jack
Jack> Before we pass along the Talking Stick, is there anything else you'd like to ask for today?
canuck75> Nope, just much thanks again for all your help
canuck75> Hope you have a great time in BC
canuck75> Talk to you all later
magnagei> hoping you get relief canuck
Jack> You are very welcome!
magnagei> take care
Laly> take care canuck HUGS.
canuck75> tx
canuck75> bye for now
Jack> Thanks eh...!
canuck75> lol
canuck75> Good day eh!
Jack> Thanks for the good wishes re: BC.!
Jack> Ms. Laly is it your turn? :-)
Laly> anything else magn needs to talk about first?
magnagei> i just have 1 quick question
magnagei> if you don't mind
Laly> shoot
Jack> Sure
Jack> Doh I didn't real eyes your Talking Stick time got interrupted!
magnagei> to me it seems like this protocol couldn't be simpler, do a KS, breathe deep relax and fully feel your body without any expectation, and adding anything else will only add to expectation, is this a good attitude to have?
Jack> What's your hunch?
magnagei> the more thinking i do the harder this is going to be
Laly> uh huh
Jack> Our "thinking ABOUT" can get in the way...
magnagei> what do you mean jack?
Jack> It IS fundamentally quite a simple process, 99% of the work is in de-energizing all of that enculturated mind-noise (and of course literal emotional and even physical wounding) we are subjected to in this culture.
Jack> It's a very simple journey, as you learn to read the signs, including when those tensions surface - a very early image
Jack> I got about that - which I believe I mentioned in the audio seminar - is
magnagei> haha yes, even physical tensions i wouldn't have noticed how tight my temporalis was if it wasn't for the ks
magnagei> i've been relaxing, massaging and releasing trigger points this whole time
magnagei> and i feel much better
Jack> that it's as if when we begin opening to this greater pleasure, these old wounds say "Wow - there is some great energy starting to flow - please help ME heal!"
Jack> That is most excellent, imho, magnagei, RIGHT ON PROTOCOL, in my book!
Jack> It's VERY important not to try to push past those tensions when they come up.
magnagei> what do you mean push past? no massage?
Jack> One way of considering this issue is that they are showing you which energy gateways have emotional wounds blocking or impairing their full opening - so it's
Laly> he means not force yourself foward when there is tension felt.
Jack> really important to bring them into awareness and get whatever help you may need to heal them as you continue your practice.
magnagei> how the hell does a Key Sound show us all this? i guess sexual energy is one of the most powerful human energies.
Jack> If they are painful or debilitating, then it's on protocol to stop practicing actively until you get the healing and resolution your system is asking for.
Jack> I tend to agree with that, magna - that's why I've committed a big part of my life
Jack> to this work.
Jack> Because it DOES seem to be so entirely fundamental.
Jack> AND revelatory!
magnagei> i mean how much time and energy do so many guys spend trying to get some poon
magnagei> sorry if that's a little crude but it's true
magnagei> not to mention the fact that our species woulnd't exist without sex
Jack> Well I think one of the reasons so much time and energy gets spent that way is that the sex they're getting IS NOT FULLY SATISFYING - either physically OR emotionally OR spiritually.
magnagei> i fully agree with that
Jack> AND our culture likes it like that cuz it sells a lot of JUNK.
magnagei> oh yea
Jack> There is a VERY strong correlation documented between repression of sexuality and increase in violence. My highly esteemed colleague Marty Klein just released a very hot book
Jack> called - one sec, let me get the exact title - America's War on Sex. A link to getting a copy will soon appear in the forthcoming Other Resources
Jack> section of the Orgasm Wiki.
magnagei> what exactly do you mean by repression of sex
Jack> My only concern about the title is that it limits the scope. It's not just the US.
Jack> That sex shouldn't be talked about, that sex education is dirty and leads to unwanted pregnancies and a whole raft of other social ills, etc. etc. - For openers.
magnagei> yes the whole view on sexuality is quite skewed
Jack> I haven't had a chance to dig in to the book yet. But my colleagues in AASECT are really singing its praises, and Marty's usually very right on. He's a prolific author.
magnagei> just want to say one more thing then i'll pass the stick
magnagei> i notice that if i don't actively 'feel' my body and what's going on during my Key Sound practice then it kind of goes away
Jack> Also - Wilhelm Reich's The Mass Psychology of Fascism (written in the 30's during Hitler's rise to power).
magnagei> is this correct way of practicng?
Laly> what goes away?
Jack> Not sure what you mean by actively feel. Do you mean touch or do you mean active, present, awareness rather than mind-wandering?
Jack> [brb]
magnagei> well it may be mind wandering
magnagei> the feeling goes away
magnagei> the pleasureable feelings
Laly> imho - it sounds like it
Laly> do you do any relaxation before your practice
Laly> to clear your mind
Laly> let go of stress, worry, or other practice-detracting
magnagei> no not really, but it wouldn't be hard to impliment
Jack> Great suggestion!
magnagei> i'm used to meditation, so it's easy for me to relax, but it's very easy for me to get lost in my thoughts afterwards
Jack> Also magna, be aware as I mentioned early on that the increase in intensity of Echo Effects is not linear.
Laly> When i get to feeling that wasy - i stop practice and take a few minutes to
magnagei> i can relax quickly but also lose it quickly is what i'm trying to say
Jack> little steps.
magnagei> yes i saw that you were talking about that earlier i chimed in just in time
Laly> breathe in slowly and exhale , with no KS.
magnagei> great advice, thanks
magnagei> i notice i'll do a ks breathe and get great feelings, then do another ks and they will diminsh a bit
Jack> I agree with Laly - if you find your mind wandering, etc. just revert to relaxing breathing for a bit, then resume the active protocol (i.e. adding back
Jack> in the single caress followed by an unforced Key Sound).
Jack> magna that kind of fluctuation of the intensity is right on protocol - it's most likely.
Jack> OVER TIME... i.e. thru a number or practice sessions, the baseline of that intensity is likely to rise, as long as we don't fall into the
magnagei> awesome, knowing that will really help in getting rid of my preconceptions
Jack> trap of trying to force it, or chasing our tail mentally fretting about its periodic diminishment.
Jack> Opening to this response if very different than what most of us are used to - that linear going for it pattern where we use more and more stimulation to pump arousal
magnagei> right, wow what a huge realization
magnagei> i think this one thing will help my practice more than anything
Jack> up to a certain point - for men often leading to ejaculation - this is different. This practice does not lead to ejaculation, NOR does it require active blocking of ejaculation - and
Jack> that is because we are taking LONGER to become MORE FULLY AROUSED - THROUGHOUT our entire body and being - so when the orgasmic (but not the ejaculatory) waves
* Laly has quit IRC (Web Browser moved off chat page)
Jack> start happening there is usually no ejaculation NOR any need to hold it back. That imho is why the Multiple Orgasm Trigger Protocol is such a breakthrough.
magnagei> that's it for my questions, so i'm passing the stick as soon as you are done explaining
Jack> I'm done. So as soon as Laly comes back in channel we'll pass her the Talking Stick.
Jack> Thanks for your great questions AND comments today magnagei!!!
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Jack> There she is!
Jack> You now have the Talking Stick, Ms. Laly.
Laly> thanks
magnagei> and thanks so much to the both of you
Jack> You are very welcome!
Laly> some reasons wasnt accepting my password jack
Jack> Well we're about to switch to vBulletin - provided I can get thru the install.
Laly> you will- patience umm grasshopper :-).
Jack> Not sure how we'll be handling the chat component then. Either pure IRC or some alternative.
Laly> yeah i thought of that part too.
Jack> I'll ask the SuperTechs at my hosting service. They are QUITE astute.
Laly> good.
Jack> Ok!
Laly> nothing really to report other that been in an up and down mood emotionally lately.
Jack> Sounds about right considering all of the VERY intensive emotional work you've been doing.
Jack> Seems like that pattern may be similar to the waxing and waning that is so natural for Echo Effects in practice.
Jack> How are you doing with it all?
Laly> some days it seems like I am gettin through just fine emotionally
Laly> but then those thoughts creep in
Laly> why am i not progressing - but feel like am falling back.
Laly> the mind noise .
Jack> Yep it's good that you real eyes it's mind noise.
Laly> realizing and stopping it are 2 different processes
Laly> entirely.
magnagei> i agree, it's just thoughts. i'll share something from what i've learned from practicing buddhism...
Jack> Laly, your recovery process is very analogous to your learning KSMO in that somedays will be better than others.
magnagei> you can't attach to the thoughts, but you also can't push them away. both of these actions make them stronger
magnagei> the only thing to do is let them self-liberate. if you do nothing when a thought comes, it has no choice but to return from where it came
magnagei> and very very much agree with what jack just said
Laly> am just very tired of crying
Laly> of feeling
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Jack> I remember that especially in the early days of my own work on recovery from sexual abuse, that I discovered I'd had this mind set (very natural - no blame - perseverance furthers) that I'd carried the crap for so long
magnagei> hi drew
Jack> that I just wanted to punch through in one push and get it all out of my system - get all of the pain out - get all of the tears out - get all of the anger out - and be DONE with it.
Jack> Hey Drew!
Jack> Welcome!
Laly> i thought that for a briet instant Jack
Laly> but in my heart knew that could do MORE damage than good.
Drew> Hello all.
Laly> there is so much pain i am feeling right now
Laly> am holding it back , afarid to let it out
Jack> What's different now than when the assaults happened is that now you have safer ways to let it out, and you have a support system that can't necessarily make it all go away POOF, but a support system that can help you get THROUGH this next wave.
magnagei> doesn't that only make it stronger?
Jack> Also, because of the intensity of the abuse you experienced, it may not be prudent to get WAY into the pain when you're all by yourself. That's something to work out with your counselor -
Jack> how far INto the pain you can go by yourself versus finding a way to bookmark that journey until you ARE in the presence of your support group.
Laly> reagarding what magn?? i dont understand
magnagei> being afraid to release crying/pain etc only makes it stronger
Laly> OH . in intesity?
Laly> yeah
magnagei> my advice is to just fully feel what you are feeling
magnagei> don't push it away
magnagei> even if it's painful
magnagei> which i know it is
Laly> extremely so.
magnagei> i'll admit i can't imagine how much so, but look at your options
Laly> so muc i can t even eat right now, dont want to.
magnagei> either feel what you are feeling, or push it away and have it come back stronger everyt ime
magnagei> then don't
Laly> i have to
magnagei> when was the last time you ate
Jack> What do you think Drew?
Laly> 6-8 hours ago
Jack> Good ? magna!
magnagei> hey if you really think you can't eat today then just try to eat some breakfast tommorrow
Drew> Think about what specifically, Jack?
magnagei> not eating for a day never hurt anyone, and i thinking foricng it will make it worse
Jack> About what Laly is saying, Drew.
Drew> She's said a LOT.
Jack> Yeah!
Jack> I'm wondering what you might have to offer her at this moment.
Drew> I'm not sure... There is a tricky balance between eating because you physically need it and eating for emotional reasons.
Drew> It seems the dilema is whether to satisfy a physical need, yet not feeling 'hungry'.
Drew> Perhaps even nauseous.
magnagei> i was just about to say, laly do you feel nauseous?
Laly> dizzy, light headed
Drew> Personally, I can usually go for a while without food... And know when my blood sugar is fropping dangerously low.
Laly> tummy doing flippy motion
Jack> low blood sugar can also produce symptoms of dizziness and light headedness.
Drew> I would suggest a light protein snack... In my experience, low blood sugar only compounds emotional issues.
magnagei> well you know your body best, but if you are dizzy and lightheaded food maybe a good idea, but if you can't handle it, maybe some freshly squeezed juice
Drew> As does yo-yoing blood sugar levels.
Jack> Laly another option is try a little warm broth or light soup. I have found when in crisis that that can be very soothing.
Laly> k- want nothing more than to just curl up and sleep -
Jack> Just the act of sitting and holding a warm cup of soup or broth - feeling its warmth, then feeling its warmth INside when I take a wee sip - I have found that helpful. It might be helpful to you, as well as the other suggestions.
Laly> to forget feeling period.
Laly> and i also know that;s not good to do eitehr
Jack> Laly, I'm also wondering if along with some kind of light nourishment a warm bath right about now might be helpful.
Drew> That's a great suggestion, Jack!
Jack> Thanks!
magnagei> well if you want to sleep but don't want to use it as escape...
Drew> I was referring to the broth, the bath is good too!
magnagei> is there something you can change your focus to? listen to the words of a very wise person?
Laly> i thought i was listening to 3 very wise people :0 .
Laly>
magnagei> i find that if for only a couple of seconds i can accept what i am feeling, this will change my attitude
magnagei> well i meant in general, like a recording of a spiritual master or something
Jack> in ADDITION to the words of the Three Wise Men sitting here with you! :-)
Laly> i tried that either- only made me cry more
Laly> am doing my meditation breathing right now
magnagei> so you feel that the crying isn't a release...but rather it intensifies the emotion?
Jack> GREAT re: the meditation breathing. My intuition says take care of the physical need first. Like the slogan says: First things first.
Laly> yes magn- exactly.
Jack> How about making the heating of soup, the holding of the warm cup, the sipping it in - all with awareness - a meditation?
Laly> okay , can do that.
Jack> While being aware of your breathing...
Jack> Attagirl!
Jack> It sucks when that old crap grabs ahold of you, but you have more tools now than you did back then. :-)
magnagei> maybe you need a hug, i can imagine how crying out of intensity could change to a release in the compassionate embrace of another human
Jack> First among them is your AWARENESS.
magnagei> *hugssss*
Laly> i hate getting his shisrt wet magn
Laly> aww thanks HUGSS back
Laly> even tho i KNOW he doesnt mind - do ya :P .
magnagei> well let me put it in this perspective. if someone is crying and they need a hug, i'd rather have the wet shirt and help them
magnagei> not a matter of not minding....but more so even that they'll WANT to help
Laly> i know - but allowing physical comfrting is very hard for me
magnagei> hmmm, hard but not impossible, yes? maybe not, but maybe it's what you need, and I don't mean to be stepping on YOUR boundaries
Laly> no worries on that
Laly> is something i am currently working through
Jack> Easy does it on that too, imho.
Laly> thanks jack
magnagei> a good thing to 'work' on, although maybe the choice of words isn't the best thing for your healing
magnagei> despite what you are feeling, maybe the attitude that there is nothing to 'work through' is the best attitude
Jack> You're welcome Laly! Likewise re: the warm soup is the fully aware act of meditatively, contemplatively drawing yourself a warm bath.
Laly> magn- compared to words I HAVE used before that is easiest to use
Jack> Maybe even combine the two, sipping soup while sitting in a warm bath.
Laly> for someone sexually assaulted , phsyical contact can be hard to do.
magnagei> yes
Jack> I agree. And to me it's really important for YOU to be able to be the one who gets to CHOOSE.
Jack> And not to take care of someone else's need to help you or hold you or hug you or whatever - but what and when YOU want.
magnagei> if at any given moment you can do it, then do it, if not then don't, that's all. nothing to 'work thorugh' is what i'm trying to say
Laly> i think that is why i had such a hard time at the last FC workshop jack
magnagei> things change every single moment
Laly> i didnt have choice of NOT wanting to join the group at the end
Jack> That sounds like a very good issue to address in your next session!
Laly> especially next to the person who was triggering instense feelings in me.
Jack> Yep. Grist for the counseling mill.
Jack> That's what group therapy is for - to help you access that STUFF - BUT in a context where you have more support and a better chance of working through it. Of FINDING YOUR VOICE.
Jack> To be able to say NO!!!
Laly> i know - that's part ly why i attend them
Jack> Yep.
Jack> And good onya for it!
Jack> Your Little One thanks you!!!
Laly> some days i wonder jack - some days
Laly> to know she has to progress as her pace and that i need to exercise
Laly> patience.
Jack> Yeah, and to remember she is still inside you, and that she might appreciate that soup, or that bath or even that hug - but she gets to choose who and what and when, with your help.
Laly> and Drew;s
Jack> MOST DEFINITELY.
Drew> Awwwww.
Laly> the fact that she's talking directly to him is encouraging
Jack> Inhale it Drew. :-)
Laly> and that; she is not frightened by my spirit guise
Laly> *guide , but squeals when he's near
Laly> (is a 800 olb white tiger)
Laly> OLB=pound
Laly> makes me ver happy
Laly> welll - tummy is cramping now
Laly> n from looks of typing - i need to eat so
Jack> What are you going to CHOOSE to do about it? :-)
Laly> make a huge protein smootie with eggs and go soak for a while
Laly> smoothie .. lol -
magnagei> sounds like a good idea
magnagei> just let everything dissolve
Laly> thanks- shoulders feeling very tense right now
Jack> Sounds like a great adventure, Laly - Enjoy... Ask yourself and your Little One a little later if they might also enjoy something WARM for the tummy e.g. that broth or whatever.
Jack> Warm bath is likely to help those tense shoulders. You've been carrying quite a load on them you know.
magnagei> breathe into the shoulders, just like the advice jack was giving me
Laly> okay jack
Laly> thanks magn- i'll remember that
Laly> thank you too Drew HUGS
magnagei> ok laly take care, and feel your best
Drew> You're welcome.
Laly> i will - I promise *holds hand up n swears
Laly> be gentle with myself
Laly> *winks
magnagei> always
Jack> What a Concept! :-)
Laly> someone who cares said that to me jack .
Jack> Lucky You! :-)
magnagei> think it's about time for me to sign off too
Laly> nite ya all HUGSSS
magnagei> nighty night
magnagei> hugss
Jack> Ok magna - it was GREAT to hear from you again! I hope you'll keep in touch via the Forum (including the new one that is hopefully just around the corner) and the chats.
magnagei> and me too, i'm off for now, great talking with everyone, and thanks for all the help everyone
magnagei> peace guys
Drew> Bye Magnagei!

Jack> Well Brother Drew, how are YOU?
Drew> I'm chillin' tonight... Was at a "Feldy" workshop today.
Jack> How are you taking care of yourself these days?
Jack> Well the Feldy helps answer my question. :-)
Jack> What was it like for you? (Feldy = Feldenkrais).
Drew> Well, I have plenty of my own issues to deal with...
Drew> Feldy was a good experience for me today...
Jack> Sounds like it may have been a nice way to nurture yourself.
Drew> Much of the experience was 'unsoncsious' ( I believe)... I slept a LOT too!
Jack> That's a good sign. I associate deep sleeping in response to those circumstances as giving our inner selves a chance to re-integrate.
Jack> Uses up a lot of CPU. Even on a Mac! ;-)
Drew> I'm doing a lot of 'sorting' these days... Figuring what is REALLY important in my life.
Jack> What is your age now, if I may ask?
Drew> and when necessary, 'weeding' out what no longer fits... That's the tough part, and takes a LOAD of courage.
Drew> 45 (going on 17)!
Jack> LOL I hear THAT! I'm 58.7 and going on maybe about that or just a little older. :-)
Jack> Have you ever had a chance to read any of ERIK Erikson's writings about the issues arising at the different adult developmental stages?
Drew> No, I haven't.
Jack> You might find something there for you.
Jack> Something heuristic.
Jack> How are you doing in your heart of hearts?
Drew> OK, I'll check it out... We were talking about early development in class today.
Jack> Cool!
Jack> RE: my last ? - You give a TON to others - straight from the heart... Just wondering how YOU are doing in there. :-)
Drew> That's a great question, thanks for asking...
Drew> I suppose in many ways, the preface to my sorting process is, "What about me?"
Jack> Yes indeed!
Drew> It's an on-going process.
Jack> Yes you are. :-)
Drew> :-)
Jack> I think that is a GREAT question for you to SAVOR asking.
Drew> yeah, I agree
Jack> Well I hope you know that you have my deepest love and highest esteem.
Drew> How are things with you... The same comment and question surely applies in your direction too!
Drew> Thanks!
Jack> I hope you'll inhale what I said. :-)
Drew> I was very much touched by your e-mail comment the other day... Not sure I could really believe it (take it in).
Jack> That's what I mean about learning to inhale. :-)
Drew> Acutally, one of my Feldy 'projects' is learning to fully EXHALE!
Jack> I'm very grateful to hear that what I said connected for you.
Jack> LOL! That's GOOD. Cuz when you make enough room to EXhale fully, then... :-)
Drew> Exactally!
Jack> Oooh I LIKE that! Exact Ally!
Jack> Nice One!
Drew> :-)
Jack> Are you getting the help you need for you in your sorting process?
Drew> Yeah, I believe so... "**" is still very much there for me.
Jack> Bless Her!!!
Drew> I have to say, it's rather rough at times.
Drew> But I'm hopeful
Jack> Oh Man - I hear you...
Drew> and feeling really 'solid' in between the times I'm in melt-down.
Jack> Are you getting some tools to help you get more of what you want and need?
Drew> I think so
Jack> Good, I hope so! And... when you melt-down - do you at times have someone there as a support for YOU,
Jack> as you so often are for others?
Drew> I'm still working on that one myself... ** pointed out to me this week, "You're getting ready for a "Spiritual Relationship""
Jack> Good. I really want to support and encourage you to be proactive in that.
Drew> :-)
Drew> Yeah, I'm needing to build some skills for that.
Jack> That resonates to me. Some actual How-To's.
Jack> Have you done any role-playing with that?
Drew> Yepper
Jack> e.g. in your sessions and workshops?
Drew> Not really, althought eh Family Constellation workshops are really good for that.
Jack> Seems like a fairly perfect place to claim some for yourself.
Jack> and "risky" as hell!
Jack> In the good sense of the word, of course. :-)
Drew> YES! Agreed!
Jack> There's a kind of letting go, there, that in some ways to me seems analogous to the learning how to let go
Jack> necessary for learning KSMO - and you have that skill.
Jack> It is STILL scary for me to take those kinds of social risks.
Drew> I hear ya there.
Jack> Possibly always will be.
Jack> One of those: feel the fear and do it anyway kinda things.
Drew> Perhaps.
Jack> I think the workshops may help you a little more than you might expect, even. Once you get
Jack> the hang of taking the leap.
Drew> I agree
Jack> AND making the choices based on who really FEELS approachable rather than someone who "should" be or whatever.
Jack> A lot gets said through the eyes. They really are the window to the soul.
Drew> They sure are.
Jack> I've always had a challenge with that eye contact thing... and still consciously make the decision to make the eye contact
Drew> Oh boy, historically that has been HUGE for me too!
Jack> and then breathe and give us both another moment to look a little deeper, provided I'm getting an it's ok signal from the other person.
Jack> I've also become aware of feeling the LOSS the GRIEF when I look away sooner than I really wanted to or that the other person seemed willing to accept.
Drew> Yeah, that's part of my sorting process... Who is willing to go with me, to where I want to go (in relating)
Drew> i.e. The depths of my soul.
Jack> And theirs!
Jack> ?
Drew> AMEN!
Jack> That's where the Share-Check-Share protocol seems to be really appropriate and helpful.
Drew> Yepper.
Jack> Little steps inward, with awareness (ah there's the c