Complete Transcript of Multiple Orgasm Trigger Coaching Chat 0250

* Laly, Marty, Drew, and Sander join Jack for a discussion of orgasm vs. ejaculation, how to take the steps to counseling, experiences with counseling, and early experience with the KSMO protocol.
* Jack and Laly discuss the distinction between orgasm and ejaculation in relation to an earlier post.
* Jack counsels Laly on taking the steps to seeking counseling and talks about the Bookend method as a way of taking such a challenging step.
* Marty, who has begun seeing a counselor discusses his progress. Jack inquires about his KSMO practice. Marty replies that he has not been practicing due to emotional restrictions in his throat. Jack suggests this is an opportunity to address them and release the pent up energy.
* Drew shares with the group his experiences with counseling and KSMO practice.
* Sander, who has been practicing for a couple of months has some questions for Jack relating to the length of practice sessions and how the belly should move during the Key Sound. Jack says practice should last only as long as he feels connected to the process and should be stopped if he feels tired or bored. As to the question of how the belly should move Jack tells him he should make the Key Sound as demonstrated in the Audio Seminar and the movement will take care of itself.

Session Start: Sat Aug 05 12:00:22 2006
<Jack> Hi Laly, how are you today?
Laly> great
Laly> having "fun" while you were off-line- posting advice and other things
Jack> That's good to hear! I'm glad to be back online, sort of... :-)
Laly> me too-
Jack> Just b4 chat time I was working on a reply to thread
Laly> am unwilling to stop smiling - been that was most of the day
Laly> kewl
Jack> kewl 2 u 2! :-)
Jack> In your great reply to... one sec, let me get it...
Laly> blessed heart song :-).
Jack> :-)
Jack> ... you were replying to keystir Jake and you mentioned
Jack> about avoiding a physical orgasm during practice - I'm not sure what you meant by that. Would you clarify please? :-)
Laly> sure- what I meant by physical orgasm ..was simply stimulating yourself a little too much
Laly> in regards to that one or two GENTLE caresses that you mention in the pdf file
Jack> ... in order to avoid what happening?
Laly> so that your or my body gets aroused to the fact HEY we are gonna be at PONR orgasm I.e. ejaculatory orgasm.
Laly> which is not really the goal of KSMO/MMO
Marty> Hello Hello!
Jack> Hi Marty, welcome! I was just asking Laly about a post she'd made.
Laly> hi marty
Marty> continue by all means
Jack> Thanks... you're definitely next! :-)
Laly> and I did tell jake that if he still had questions Jack to ask and I would clarify things.
Jack> It's easier for me to understand the distinction by using orgasm to mean the rushes of feelings and emotions,
Jack> and the word ejaculation to refer to the reflex that triggers emission of fluid either in men or in women who experience ejaculation.
Laly> ok.
Laly> yes
Laly> I lost that post halfway thru jack
Laly> so didn't get chance to finish what I wanted to
Laly> say.
Jack> oh you can click the EDIT button and go in and fix your post if you want. Did you know that?
Laly> yes
Laly> am at work - will do so tonite
Jack> I'm sure glad that what you had written actually posted and didn't just go away. It's very good stuff! :-)
Laly> didn't show up last nite to edit jack
Laly> me too
Jack> Hey no worries! Not a critique, just wanted to clarify,
Jack> as even sex experts use ejaculation and orgasm interchangeably - esp in reference to men, and that creates a kind of
Jack> cognitive straightjacket that may make it more of a challenge
Jack> to really appreciate that yes even men are physiologically capable of experiencing totally intense transcendent orgasms for
Jack> as long as they want without any ejaculation or even any need to try to prevent ejaculation.
Laly> appreciate it
Marty> ! more of a challenge ?? !!! as if we need that !
Laly> true marty...but from my standpoint - as a woman trying to help jake was a challenge for me
Laly> one I treasured.
Jack> You did GREAT, too!
Laly> attempting to be Jack's - umm left hand for a few days ::
Jack> You had mentioned that
Jack> you were personally concerned about genital touch because of the intensity ( quite understandably! )
Laly> from my standpoint Jack- it is...
Jack> Yeah I can really appreciate that, Laly.
Jack> It may have been just that you had shifted gears after that statement to thinking of Jake's challenge
Jack> when in the sentence right after that you said that kind of orgasm was not the goal of the MOT practice.
Laly> possibly jack.
Jack> That's why I got a little confused. :-)
Laly> ok
Laly> post wasn't done jack- so would have clarified it beforehand
Jack> No worries at all, Laly. For real... That's why there's an edit button. No biggie. I just wanted
Jack> to be sure I understood what you were trying to convey to Jake / keystir .
Laly> thanks -
Jack> You're very welcome!
Jack> I agree that one purpose of this 20 minute practice guideline for men in particular is to help them de-link ejaculation
Jack> from orgasm by learning how to
Jack> build arousal using the Key Sound, relaxing breathing, and very very little direct stimulation
Jack> so there will be no ejaculatory Point of No Return to even worry about!
Jack> I know YOU know that Laly, I'm just
Jack> bein' on my soapbox a little. :-)
Laly> - no worries jack
Jack> RE: You own concerns re: genital touch - is that related to
Jack> where you are in your recovery process - i.e. those kinds of emotional furballs - that you're planning to address with a counselor, or
Jack> instead of or in addition to those challenges
Jack> are there concerns or any need for clarification that we might address here?
Laly> is one of the issues I would like to discuss with counselor
Jack> Ah thought so. Yeah that makes perfect sense!
Laly> and I find that I don't REALLY need to do any direct contact to achieve one or multiple KMSO orgasms
Jack> Also pls inform your counselor of my total availability to answer questions about this method.
Laly> ok
Laly> one step closer to making that phone call
Jack> GREAT!
Laly> *sighs - never thought it would be this hard just to make the call jack
Jack> Have you ever heard of the bookend method of taking a challenging growth step such as that?
Marty> go for it Lalay
Laly> no? please explain
Jack> :-) > Marty!
Laly> thanks marty
Jack> One of the greatest challenges imho to recovering from the effects of abuse
Jack> is to take those steps that to other people may seem like such a no-brainer and yet to us feels
Jack> like a pretty steep climb to us. One
Jack> thing that's really helped me has been the BOOKEND METHOD which is:
Jack> Whenever you want to take an action step on behalf of yourself - JUST before you (using the phone example)
Jack> pick up the phone to call a counselor, FIRST call a trusted support person (e.g. Drew), to tell them what you are about to do and ask
Jack> in a SAFE context for the support you need to hang up and dial that other number.
Jack> Next,
Jack> Dial That Other Number - i.e. go ahead and make the call to the counselor, KNOWING THAT AS SOON AS YOU GET OFF THE PHONE,
Jack> you have pre-arranged with your support person that you will be calling them again to check back in!
Jack> In effect,
Jack> you are using your trusted friend as supportive BOOKENDS on either side of your RECOVERY ACTION STEP!
Marty> hye very good I like
Jack> OMG!
Laly> hi drew - HUGSS.
Jack> Right on cue, Mister Drew!
Drew> Hi Laly
Drew> Cue?
Jack> Laly?
Marty> Hey Drew !
Laly> yes jack
Drew> < enters stage left.
Drew> HI Marty.
Jack> Care to clue Drew to the Cue? :-)
Laly> <laughs and smiles
Laly> I thinks he's already cued in - but
Laly> I know that he is there for me - if and when I make that call to the counselor
Drew> :-)
Jack> laly care to restate that sentence without the "if and" and check the difference?
Laly> when I make that call :-)>
Jack> Yayuh!
Drew> atta gal!
Marty> alright
Laly> aww - now the tears flow :-).
Marty> visualize your counselor as being just right - all the help you can get
Marty> in one person
Jack> Good one, Marty!
Jack> Drew, I'd just been explaining to Laly the Bookends Method of getting support for taking
Jack> a Recovery Action Step such as making that first call to that first counselor she's going to evaluate. :-)
Jack> That is, to Bookend
Drew> "old friends"
Jack> the call to the counselor with a call to a trusted supportive friend (and I'd given you as an example, just b4 you showed up today!),
Drew> Oh, I see!
Laly> :-).
Jack> and get all of the support encouragement and generally loading up on positive vibes, then making the
Jack> call to the counselor (the current example of a Recovery Action Step), and then RIGHT AFTER that,
Laly> [like I did when I called **, Drew}
Jack> to BOOKEND that with a FOLLOWUP call to the trusted supportive friend (e.g. Drew)!
Marty> How ya feeling Laly?
Laly> excited, nervous, terrified, happy, joyful
Marty> yep about right then
Jack> :-)
Laly> my heart is racing very hard right now.
Drew> sounds like a 'normal' day for me! ;-)
Laly> takes deep breath
Jack> Let your heart know that you don't need to make the call now, Laly.
Laly> thanks.
Jack> Also, I want to say that you don't have to limit yourself to one call before the RAS and one after.
Laly> As you know jack - I have been discussing this with laguna as well
Laly> and suggested meeting them in person- to see if a 'connection' is there
Jack> You may need to bookend "Ok, I'm gonna go dial the first x digits" and get grounded in that by calling back and saying Ok I got thru the first x digits, now
Jack> I'm gonna go for number 7 (or number ten or 11, etc. if long distance!) and then bookend THAT.
Laly> ok
Jack> The idea is to take whatever step even what to others might seem a little step - but take THAT step - bookend it with a supportive friend, then
Jack> take another when you're ready - bookending that.
Laly> is not the dialing the number that is troubling jack- it is what am I going to say and how much to say
Jack> Oh yeah, and don't kid yourself into waiting until you won't feel anxious taking the step. That anxiety is ENERGY that lets you
Jack> know that the STEP IS WORTH TAKING.
Marty> is good for us to know what is the worry thx for sharing
Marty> we can only help when we know this
Laly> wipes tears away
Laly> thanks marty
Jack> Laly, maybe your supportive friend with role play with you a little. The cool thing about role playing is always
Jack> start off by doing at least two role plays the "wrong" way, that is really "screw it up" intentionally while you are rehearsing / role playing
Jack> with your friend - have some fun - cuss - say weird stuff - etc.
Marty> right on Jack
Laly> OH?
Jack> then role play one or more for real scenarios. Role playing can be a real blast!
Marty> yes do the really worst situation you imagine and know it cant and wont ever happen
Jack> Or even if it does, YOU WILL SURVIVE.
Marty> then do it the good way a few times
Jack> = power surge!
Jack> :-)
Jack> Ok, Laly?
Laly> I may have survived that night- but not been 'alive" for a long time
Laly> yea jack -
Laly> am ok
Jack> Hopefully more alive the last 11 mos. :-)
Laly> 12 mos. now
Jack> Happy Re-Birth Day !
Laly> :-).
Jack> Shall we pass the Talking Stick to Marty for a while ?
Marty> lol you guys r too cool
Laly> sure
Marty> Well hi,
Laly> HUGS marty and passes talking stick
Marty> ahaha hmm thanks sweetie Hugs!
Laly> :-).
Marty> I am coming from the direction of having made the call and am benefiting from it.
Marty> position I should say
Jack> Way to take care of yourself Marty!
Marty> and I find she is great to talk to and visit. she gives me space and helps me
Marty> and directs me with gentle questions -
Marty> I realize I have done very little
Marty> ehm I mean I have avoided attention
Marty> paying attention to me and having attention payed to me by others
Marty> hiding in my mind
Marty> sort of
Jack> I hear ya Marty!
Marty> and from here I control and suppress feeling
Marty> have done since childhood
Marty> so it's like learning a new language discovering feeling
Laly> uh huh
Marty> the normal Q - how are you feeling ? - is a challenge
Marty> usually I don't know
Marty> I am making progress tho
Jack> Way to OWN that!
Marty> an I have got over the nervousness of coming to see her
Marty> you know I sort of felt I was expected to do or say something
Marty> or be judged, sorta - I mean there should be something that I should be trying to achieve
Marty> I am letting go of that
Marty> it helps also to do Tai chi exercise before
Marty> get into my body and slow down
Marty> be more present
Marty> I rush a lot
Jack> That pattern of letting go of the trying to achieve will be VERY useful to you in THIS practice as well Marty!
Jack> AS does your practice of being more present.
Marty> I kinda get that
Laly> YES- I AGREE
Marty> thx
Marty> good
Jack> Yeah Brother, it is. You are.
Marty> hmmm there is a lot of things and great ideas I have - a lot of understanding I have in my mind
Marty> but it ain't connected if you know
Marty> know - I have to let my body catch
Marty> up
Marty> I miss my slow Tai chi form I really feel that
Marty> 3 yrs ago I left I wanted a change but didn't know what, an I didn't mention it to the teacher
Marty> Anyone here do Tai Chi or know about it?
Laly> know of it-
Marty> Seen it done??
Laly> have a few David Carradine videos
Marty> it is way cool - it is almost palpable
Jack> It is on MY Do List of something I want to add to my life. I've had a little experience with Tai Chi and I like it very much. I love to watch it too - even that has a powerful effect on me.
Marty> don't know that guy
Laly> was a very big movie star here in the United States marty
Laly> *star
Marty> yes yes it does - is very simple - small step by step is the way
Jack> What has your experience been like so far with practicing the Multiple Orgasm Trigger protocol?
Marty> I have not
Jack> Any plans to?
Marty> I think I have emotional restriction in my throat
Marty> sort of feel like they are a hindrance
Jack> Are you still seeing your counselor?
Marty> I think I need to cry a lot
Marty> oh yes
Marty> weekly
Laly> if I may?
Jack> Sounds like a great opportunity to address the emotions blocked in your throat area... release that pent up energy! :-)
Marty> have not mention this yet tho I reckon I will
Marty> go on
Jack> Pls do Marty,
Jack> for optimum results with THIS practice.
Marty> Laly
Laly> marty- from someone WHO does cry a lot- happy or sad- it can be quite refreshing
Marty> I remember
Marty> huge release ?
Laly> yes
Laly> even now am crying
Marty> it is the uncontrollable nature that sort scare the **** outta me
Marty> I can't relate to all your tears
Marty> I can't see any common way of understanding how you can cry so easily
Laly> for a long time I couldn't OR wouldn't cry marty after being raped
Marty> ok
Jack> Marty as you continue the work with your counselor - she may help you connect those tears to actual events and may help you find other ways to experience those feelings safely and in a way that will be healing for you.
Marty> yes ok
Jack> Big Opportunity!
Marty> yep I know I am committed to continuing on this journey
Marty> commited!
Marty> not omitted
Laly> whoo hoo
Marty> what that sxaying?
Marty> I omit myself?? what
Laly> *grins
Marty> yes commited
Jack> Those are very good questions you just asked about the slips, Marty. Slips are often ignored by people, but they are
Jack> often attempts by our subconscious to convey
Jack> information to us. Great for exploring with your counselor!
Marty> I a missing part of me an I want me whole
Marty> as do you I bet laly
Laly> yes jack
Marty> ommit = miss right?
Marty> leave out
Laly> yes
Jack> by extension, disqualify...
Marty> yes she is sharp jack she hears me I reckon she is good
Jack> Sounds like it. That's GREAT!
Jack> May we also check in with Drew today?
Jack> Drew you still near the keybd?
Marty> alrighty then yes go ahead
Drew> Yep
Drew> I'm pretty mellow though... Had a "Feldenkrais" class earlier today.
Jack> What is new with YOU? btw, Marty, Drew has MANY
Jack> [years of experience both with healing very challenging furballs and enjoying the benefits of Multiple Orgasm Trigger practice as a result.]
Laly> pls explain what that is?
Jack> For those who may not be familiar, would you describe what a Feldenkrais class is like?
Drew> Those 'two journeys' are inseparable for me.
Jack> Drew pls do say more about how and why
Jack> those two journeys / paths are inseparable for you!
Drew> Oh Jack, you always ask the 'easy' questions!
Laly> lol
Jack> Natcherly, Bro! :-)
Drew> Well, KSMO experience is all about FEELING...
Drew> From VERY early in life, I 'learned' it was not safe for me to feel.
Drew> thus, I became afraid of my own feelings.
Drew> My body (and mental attitude) were RIGID!
Laly>
Drew> I was already involved with personal growth/counseling when I discovered Jack's seminar.
Marty> woah
Marty> you made a leap there from rigid to counseling
Marty> how did you come to counseling??
Drew> indeed YES!
Marty> any u want to share there?
Drew> Make NO MISTAKE about it, it takes COURAGE.
Marty> kinda relevant
Drew> Yet I was unhappy... Caught in my own 'illusions' of life... Not able to connect with present reality in a mature way.
Drew> Part of me was smart enough to realize that
Drew> and take steps to do something about it.
Marty> ( it seems a lot of people are not sensitive in this way!)
Drew> TELL ME ABOUT IT!
Marty> lol
Laly>
Marty> go on
Drew> For me, practicing KSMO was first about building a charge...
Drew> It took a rather long time... Much longer than I would've preferred; I PERSISTED!
Drew> I intuitively knew Jack's method was worth pursuing (just like counseling).
Laly> cool.
Drew> Eventually, I began feeling different sensations in the genital area.
Drew> This gave me the encouragement I needed to keep going.
Drew> As I became more adept at building a sexual charge, my awareness shifted to a different stage of development in my KSMO journey.
Marty> (One thought)
Drew> Go for it!
Marty> I just - well have come to realize I have not been happy about being a man
Marty> having interpreted men as bad in some way
Marty> lesser - thick etc
Drew> May I ask... Is that 'yours' or someone else's?
Marty> and I have elevated the female orgasm then as that is what i would like !!!
Marty> hmm good Q
Laly> :-)
Marty> well its something have seen and understood from mother and aunty and other women in relation to their men
Drew> I am VERY aware that many of my 'attitudes/beliefs' were inherited from my past caretakers....
Laly> same here.
Marty> hmmm good thing to be aware of certainly
Drew> the more I become self-aware, the more I'm able to evaluate what REALLY belongs to me!
Marty> alrighty
Marty> true .
Marty> yes
Marty> it is also for me
Marty> about coming from myself which I have not done a lot
Drew> Are you looking at yourself through your mother's/aunt's eyes?
Marty> probably
Marty> they have been way too influential for me
Drew> That would be a good think to check out and update, especially if it's not working for ya. ;-)
Laly> may have "allowed" that marty
Marty> I always allowed them too much influence over me by being afraid of their anger
Marty> and not having access to my own
Drew> Part of the issue in my life has been the lack of HEALTHY MASCULINE role models.
Marty> I don't trust my anger to be controlled
Marty> hell yes me too
Marty> sure do go on
Laly> same with me drew
Drew> So, I needed to 'build' certain things for myself... With my counselor's help. This is an on-going process.
Drew> The main theme at the moment is "How to have 'compassion' for myself when I'm hurting."
Marty> (Laly - feeling for you!
Marty> good Drew
Drew> I believe this trait has been essential for me on my KSMO journey.
Jack> Drew I think that's a VERY important issue - especially for people who have survived some kind of abuse ( most folks? ) - to
Jack> Have COMPASSION for YOURSELF (even!) when you're hurting!
Drew> Yep, that's IT!
Laly> it is hard- but am learning that one :-).
Jack> When we can engage that part of ourselves, EVEN A LITTLE BIT to begin with,
Marty> I am stumped- Drew - how do I feel compassion for myself? - not a Q for you just an exploration
Jack> it gets a little easier to take that next Recovery Action Step.
Jack> Good on ya Laly!
Marty> I am still in the bewildered stage!!!
Marty> lol
Jack> Good ? Marty!
Drew> That's a GREAT line of self-inquiry, Marty.
Marty> willing to learn tho
Laly> one step a a time marty- you will get there- with your counselor's help
Marty> yes I am perpetually impatient and have a habit of rushing
Jack> Drew. Maybe an example would help. :-)
Marty> - the slower I go the faster I will get there!
Marty> right?
Jack> ESPECIALLY in THIS practice!
Laly> yes- in this context
Drew> Marty, I am VERY familiar with that pattern... The thing is, it PREVENTS LEARNING!
Laly> slow and gentle is the key
Marty> the faster I will get well anywhere!
Marty> lol
Drew> There can be no learning without awareness
Jack> Welcome Sander!
Laly> {hi sander}
sander> hi all
Jack> Awareness creates the Vessel to Receive the Learning.
Jack> VGP Drew!
Marty> yep all Cool
Marty> Rushing prevent feeling
Marty> That's is probably why I have a history of rushing !!!
Drew> and if you're impatient (i.e. you 'expect' yourself to know before you've LEARNED), in my experience, it prevents us from being 'present' and paying attention to the feedback being given to us by our body and environment.
Laly> also - with rushing - may miss something vital or important marty
Marty> aahh good point
Marty> thanks
Laly> ok- got to get back to work
Marty> yes Laly that too
Jack> Including at times, what other people are offering you.
Jack> Drew, would it be ok if we pass the Talking Stick to Sander?
Marty> ok sweetie
Marty> suppertime here !
Drew> Please do... I'm getting HUNGRY (paying attention to feedback from my body)!
Jack> LOL!
Marty> lol me too
Marty> I hear it
Laly> take care marty HUGS
Jack> Thanks for sharing some of your story, Drew!
Jack> Have a great week Marty!
Drew> As always, you're very welcome!
Marty> mm Hugs laly bye cya next week
Laly> :-)
Marty> Thanks Drew you rock man
Marty> Thax Jack take care !
Jack> You too! Pls let
Jack> your counselor know she's welcome to contact me and
Jack> maybe you could give her a copy of the pdf document
Marty> sure thing
Jack> so she'll have some familiarity with this practice. I'm
Jack> happy to answer any questions she may have about it.
Marty> Got it
Jack> Bye for now!
Jack> Bon Appetit!
Marty> np bye now
Drew> Bye Marty!
Marty> hihihi ok
Marty> ye D
Jack> Welcome sander! How about introducing yourself a little (while of course preserving your anonymity)?
sander> thanks!
Drew> Welcome Sander!
Laly> could I get a copy of transcript ?
Laly> hello sander
sander> I'm quite new at this, bought the program years ago but never had time to practice
Jack> A very warm welcome BACK! :-)
sander> but now I have been practicing for soon two months
sander> I do have a couple of questions:
Jack> Sure!
sander> first, when I do a 20 minute session, I always get the best results in the start, but somewhere halfway I often get tired and loose concentration
Jack> What time of day are you practicing?
sander> should I do shorter sessions? I have a bit of a problem with tiredness generally
Jack> As a rule of thumb I'd say that if you are losing interest or energy, it's a good time to stop. I personally
Jack> don't believe one should ever do this practice out of a sense of duty or should -ness .
sander> I try to practice when I feel most awake, but I am often tired during the whole day
Jack> Have you checked with MD about the chronic tiredness?
sander> MD?
Jack> Doctor.
Jack> Physician.
Jack> One who can order bloodtests, etc. to investigate possible physiological clues to the chronic low energy.
sander> yeah, they know nothing. it comes and goes, but if I lay down I often fall asleep even if I feel fine
Jack> Well I certainly agree that some MDs don't know what they act like they do, etc. But there are SOME reasonably competent physicians
Jack> who MAY be able to identify issues at the physiological level. It doesn't always require pills or surgery. Sometimes dietary changes, activity level, etc. can do the trick.
Jack> In answer to your original question, yes I would recommend that you only practice as long as you feel connected authentically to the process.
Jack> If you're too tired or bored, then you might as well be doing something else. Yes? :-)
sander> yes, I have been working with this for years, and I am getting better.
Jack> That's great news! I'm very glad to hear that!!!
Jack> You mentioned that during your KSMO practice, the first ten or so minutes yielded some results of interest -
Jack> could you pls say more about what you experienced that you liked?
sander> to your answer, yes I have tried to cut the time, and it works better.
sander> often the best Echoes comes with the first two breaths
Jack> What are the Echoes like?
sander> Seems to be different categories...
Jack> What are the actual sensations, and where in your body?
Jack> And for sure - what are the different categories! :-)
sander> sometimes, but not so often I feel fullness in the pubic area
Jack> Happened spontaneously around practice time or during?
sander> often I feel like a muscle contraction without contraction through the body
sander> and often I feel softer waves through the body
Jack> Pls say more about that - that feeling like a muscle contraction without contraction is like, if you would.
Jack> How do you like those waves?
Jack> Do they move from head to toe, or where?
sander> So many questions, Jack! please let me answer, takes a bit time for me...
Jack> No worries, sander - your statements evoked interest, thus the questions! :-) Pls take your time.
sander> ok: muscle contraction without contraction, difficult to describe better, it is just like the nervous signals tell all the muscles in my body to contract, but no muscle is moving. said this way it sounds unpleasant, but it feels good
sander> it feels like a synchronized happening, not like a wave
sander> kind of a body orgasm
Jack> Yeah that definitely sounds like the AWAKENING of Echo Effects.
Jack> Wonderful!!!
Jack> Yeah these orgasms are very often permeated throughout your body.
sander> The softer waves does also feel like some body orgasm, but softer than the prev contraction thing. it feels like they come from the pubic area and moves up to the head
Jack> Are these also pleasant for you?
sander> yes, very pleasant, but not yet strong enough to replace an ordinary orgasm though
Jack> Of course not. They don't ever have to replace ordinary orgasm.
Jack> What you may notice thru this practice over time though is that ordinary (by that I assume you mean ejaculation-associated) orgasm
Jack> becomes more pleasurable.
Jack> Meanwhile if you just practice as long as you feel like it, and not more frequently than every other day, it will be interesting
Jack> to see how the awakening of these Echo Effects continue. It may be some time before they feel particularly sexual, especially in a directly genital way. Everybody's
Jack> multi-orgasmic response awakens differently - some awaken in the genitals fairly early on while others it's more diffuse.
sander> ok
sander> next question:
Jack> Yes please.
sander> during the Key Sound, at the last part the belly should expand, right?
Jack> It's not exactly an expansion - kind of an expansion with a crunch - but I really encourage you not to concentrate
Jack> on making your stomach move the "right" way. For most people that becomes a distraction.
Jack> If you're articulating the Key Sound correctly as I demonstrate in the two audio seminars, then
Jack> your stomach will automatically be moving the "right" way.
sander> I concentrate on the sound, and then my belly moves outwards
Jack> Yeah if you're getting that little roll in the middle between the first and second part of the sound, then
Jack> the lower belly usually will move outwards somewhat.
sander> but I feel I use muscle force on that part of the sound, and after the sound has finished I have to relax in these muscles...
Jack> What do you mean by muscle force?
sander> and the transition to relaxed state is not smooth as I would like it.
Jack> smoother will probably happen by itself over time.
Jack> FYI - The second part of the sound has a kind of GENTLE push to it - but there's no need try to push extra hard or anything like that - such exertion may actually delay the appears of the stronger Echo Effects.
sander> its like when the sound is finished, I have to search for muscle tension in the body, and concentrate to relax in these muscles. this feels kinda on-off and not so smooth. I feel like I have to relax as fast as possible so not to interfere with the Echo Effects
Jack> Relaxing as fast as possible sounds a little paradoxical to me - a little like a double-bind. BTW, you don't need to stretch the sound
Jack> out overly long... just the way I demonstrate it. Then you use the relaxing breaths - 2 to 4 - to allow yourself to relax. My intuition is
Jack> that if you're thinking "I gotta hurry here..." that that could be counterproductive. If it IS working for you to your satisfaction,
Jack> then great, but otherwise, I'd suggest letting go of feeling a need to hurry to relax. Just allow the Key Sound to happen in a relaxed way - correctly articulated,
Jack> then enjoy 2 to 4 unhurried (but not overly slow) relaxing breaths, as you may happen to notice Echo Effects, then repeat, using
Jack> a single touch or caress, Key Sound, breaths, repeat... all within a context of relaxation.
sander> ok, I'll work at it
sander> one more thing:
Jack> Don't work at it - relax and enjoy it. :-)
sander> you say not more often than the other day, but is there a not more seldom than...?
Jack> Well that's up to you. There is no should about this. If you are not motivated to practice then why bother? But if you are curious as to what you might learn about yourself and your orgasmic capacity, then I invite you
Jack> to explore it at least in part by practicing this method, but not more than 20 minutes (or so) and not more often than every other day.
Jack> My point about relax and enjoy versus working on it is a non-trivial cognitive issue in my opinion.
Jack> If one approaches this practice as a task to be mastered - to somehow make or get our body to deliver the goods, that establishes
Jack> an adversarial relationship with the parts of us responsible for this wondrous multi-orgasmic capacity. Tis better to be a patient student and let the Echo Effects be the Teacher.
Jack> In My Honest Opinion. :-)
sander> I see your point. But as I'm quite experienced in different energetic practicing systems, I see that if I do not practice for a while, I take steps backwards.
Jack> Well I caution you about transferring assumptions to this practice based on your experience in other ones.
Jack> But... if that works for you - great! However, if not, then you might consider what I suggested.
sander> Thanks Jack! I think I have enough to think about for now. I'll ease up a bit and let the flow go
sander> I'll be back in a while to report the progress
Jack> Sounds great Sander. Yeah just let all of that input percolate a bit. I hope you enjoy your practices when you feel moved to have them, and that you'll blog your experiences in the Forum.
Jack> Yes by all means do return to the Chat as well! Thanks for being here today. BTW, where generally are you typing from?
sander> I'm in Norway
Jack> Wonderful to speak with you today/evening! :-) Take care sander, I wish you all the best!
sander> Thanks, the same to you! Bye
Drew> Bye Sander!
Jack> Bye Drew! Thanks for being here today!
sander> Bye Drew
Drew> You're very welcome, my Brother!
Jack> :-) Thanks for that Drew - Means a LOT!
Session Close: Sat Aug 05 14:54:26 2006