• yomo, Guy, and sonoran_jaquar join Jack for a discussion of Echo Effects, benefits of therapy, effects of the Key Sound on a partner, experimenting with the Practice, and the difference between "****ing" and "making love".
• Jack inquires how yomo's practice has been going. yomo responds that he is feeling Echo Effects all over his body in millions of colors, textures, and behaviors. He reports that his heart feels open. He also reports thinking of the Echo Effects as friendly intelligent being, i.e. Allies. Jack responds that these are all positive signs and a great extension of what he has been saying about letting the Echo Effects be the primary teacher.
• yomo reports a feeling of relaxation after practicing for almost a year. Jack responds that is the reason he often says it takes the time it takes and is different for each individual. He tells yomo the important thing is that he didn't give up.
• yomo says that he has started seeing a therapist, which has made big difference. Jack congratulates him for taking this step and notes the benefits to yomo's practice as a result.
• Guy mentions that he has also consulted therapists which has proved helpful. He relates that during a lovemaking session with his wife, he let out a huge roar with the Key Sound and his wife had a strong orgasm afterward. Jack said that his wife's orgasm was in effect Echo Effects in response to his Key Sounds.
• Guy inquires whether is appropriate to increase stimulation in his practice now that he has explored Echo Effects with almost no stimulation. Jack responds that the guidelines for low stimulation are for the beginning stages of the practice and it once strong and pleasurable Echo Effects have manifested, it is appropriate to experiment with increased stimulation.
• yomo reports that he can easily end up overstimulated with very little stimulation while Guy says that he has not gotten this "pent-up" feeling. Jack suggests when this occurs that the "pent-up" feeling can be expressed outward through the Key Sound followed by a few relaxing breaths. Also, he emphasizes that ejaculation during practice is not a failure, but an opportunity to learn more.
• sonoran_jaquar, who started the practice four years ago, then stopped, asks for advice on how to keep the practice going. Jack informs him of the The Multiple Orgasm Trigger Protocol Summary Update pdf document and the Multiple Orgasm Trigger Key Sound Training Seminar for Both Men and Women. He also mentions the option for the one to one phone consultation and congratulates sonoran_jaquar for returning for help.
• Guy, who has left the chat, returns to report on a practice session he has just had with positive results in the form of 3-4 orgasms where everything "just fell into place". Jack congratulates him on his GRAND OPENING.
• Guy mentions a book called "Passionate Marriage" which has been helpful, particularly for the idea of "surrender while holding on" which he used during his practice session. Jack informs that the book is available through his shopping cart and is HIGHLY recommended.
• Jack tells Guy that he has role modelled some important behaviors/attitudes which lead to success with the Practice, PERSISTENCE, POSTING to the forum, being ACTIVE in the CHATS, getting PROFESSIONAL HELP, and continuing to stay as OPEN, and EMOTIONALLY HONEST as possible.
• Guy initiates a discussion on the difference between ****ing he defines as including a bit of raw male aggression in a healthy way versus making love which he defines repressing that side. Jack responds that this issue merits an ongoing thread in the Forum and invites Guy, yomo, and sonoran_jaquar to contribute to it. He also says that the guide to expressing these behaviors is INFORMED MUTUAL CONSENT.
• Jack concludes by thanking yomo, Guy, and sonoran_jaquar for their participation and says that he feels all participants have been through some kind of Spirit Walk/Vison Quest Male Rite. He also says that at 4 hours 30 plus minutes this has been the second longest chat in the ten year history of the Forum!

Session Start: Sat Jun 18 12:00:32 2005
yomo> howdy
Jack> Hey Yomo, welcome back!
yomo> thanks
yomo> I haven't forgotten to post to forum - life is crazy - I have been thinking about it though
Jack> That's a great beginning. I understand re: time... "Life Happens." I hope
Jack> life is good for you though!
yomo> yeah - life is good.
Jack> What news re: practice since we last chatted?
yomo> I am just slow - in a fast world
yomo> Interesting - practice
yomo> Completely different
yomo> than before
yomo> echos - much more moving around my body - and I am feeling them in my head
yomo> they are working on my over analyzing
yomo> I am seeing them in a way as intelligent beings who are my friend - rather than effects I am trying to produce
yomo> I am also feeling a lot less desperate to "release"
yomo> not feeling like the energy builds up in a way that makes me feel pent up
yomo> it can sort of low level hum - feel pleasant without needing to resolve itself
yomo> also - I am realizing
yomo> that the echos are all kinds of different thing - millions of colors and textures and behaviors
yomo> (well I have not felt millions yet - but I have a feeling that there could always be a different one)
yomo> before - I was feeling more just one kind - and It was a "new" feeling
yomo> but really limited to a sexual - old style - feeling
yomo> now it is more like - ideas - and interesting
yomo> I will be thinking about a database problem
yomo> and get an echo sometimes - like my daydreams - blend and talk to them
yomo> I am having an "interesting" time with my "ex" - and was feeling really hurt by our last encounter
yomo> and then maybe a week later - I think the echoes helped me process it - I feel so forgiving
yomo> so anyway - no explosions - but I don't care - my heart feels soft and open
yomo> I feel really good.
yomo> Hi Guy
Guy> Guy Yomo, Jack!
Guy> er, Hi.
yomo> rhymes
yomo> heh heh
Jack> Hey Guy! Welcome! Yomo... Whew! I LOVE that idea of seeing the Echo Effects as your friend. That is GREAT! LOL re: The Echoes dissolving over-analyzing: Great news! "Slow" is EXCELLENT for THIS practice! That's GREAT to hear that the energy is really starting to move!
Jack> Guy, to bring you up to speed, yomo is relatively
Jack> new at this practice, and has just been reporting some great new changes in his experience during practice. Yomo,
Jack> I'm wondering if before you continue, we could just get a little info from Guy about where he's typing from (generally),
Jack> age, marital status, orientation, how long practicing the Protocol, etc. Guy, as ALWAYS only answer to whatever
Jack> extent you feel comfortable. I ask that you press the Enter key
Jack> about every ten lines, and when it's "back to us," just end that line with a . ! or ? Many thanks and welcome!
yomo> of course.
Guy> Thanks, Jack. I'm from Seattle area. Jack, I talked to you yesterday on the phone.
Guy> I'm about 40, married. Been exploring this about 16 months now on and off.
Jack> Oh THAT Guy! LOL! Welcome BACK!
Guy> Thanks!
Jack> y/w! Yomo, wow man you have shared a lot here... gimme a mo', yo, to read back through just a bit, as I definitely
Jack> want to respond to what you've said.
Jack> I want to reiterate
Jack> how VERY COOL that analogy is that your Echo Effects seems like friendly intelligent beings. Indeed! ALLIES! That's
Jack> a great extension of what I've been saying about
Jack> "Let your Echo Effects be your primary TEACHER." :-) Also,
Jack> It is a WONDERFUL sign that you are really "getting" that awareness of the seemingly infinite VARIETY
Jack> of the Echo Effects! Yes indeed, I really agree with that! They feel very FRACTAL. Just doors beyond doors beyond doors of new
Jack> ways of experiencing not only pleasure, but that wonderful HEART CHAKRA opening that you are describing! That sounds
Jack> like a _very big one_ for your feelings vis a vis your ex to have evolved like that! WOWWWW!
Jack> Oh one additional thing:
Jack> RE: the "pent-up" issue:
Jack> That's great that that doesn't seem to be in the mix any more! One tip about that is
Jack> that as arousal continues
Jack> to build, you at times may feel some of that, and that
Jack> is where you get to experience another huge benefit of learning the Key Sound:
Jack> Prior to this practice, most people, when they get to that "pent-up" "can't stand it any longer" feeling
Jack> have learned through enculturation that the only "solution" is to "go for it"... that is to use more
Jack> stimulation to lead to (for men) ejaculation and for women what many refer to as a "clitoral" (i.e. localized in the genital area) orgasm. For
Jack> women, they often describe this orgasm as less than completely satisfying, like something is missing, or is that all there is, etc. And men
Jack> often report similar feelings after "going for" ejaculation at a time like that! A great bonus of the Key Sound
Jack> discovery is that when you **start** to feel the ***leading edge*** of any "pent-up" feeling, you NOW
Jack> have ANOTHER CHANNEL for expressing that accumulating energy: THROUGH THE KEY SOUND! I sometimes refer
Jack> to this as "ejaculating" the pent-up energy through the Key Sound, rather than (actual emissive) ejaculation through your penis!
Jack> Guy may have some thoughts from his experience about what you've been saying as well. What say, Guy?
Guy> Honestly, I have to bow out for a few minutes, I'll be back to you in just a few
Guy> I do have something to share but had an interruption here.
yomo> I had a techno glitch - so I missed what was said
yomo> chattus interuptus.
Jack> LMAO!
Guy> Ok, I'm back now.
Jack> k. thanks. Any thoughts re: what yomo's had to share?
Guy> Yomo, sounds like you are progressing much faster with this than I have, for what it's worth.
Guy> I agree that there are a huge variety of feelings that you can get with this practice. I've felt lots of the kinds of things you are describing
Guy> during my practice. I do feel like it has been good at helping me not "over-analyze" things.
Guy> I also find that after experiencing strong Echo Effects, that I am much more able to express my emotions in a variety of ways - through music, lovemaking, etc.
Guy> That's it for now, I didn't see some of Yomo's original post because I logged in late, but I agree that Echo Effects can be very "instructive".
Guy> Back to you, Yomo.
yomo> hmmm... thanks for the comments. just in the last couple weeks things have shifted - It was very slow and I was beginning to get frustrated and anxious - been almost a year.
yomo> I seem to have relaxed for some reason.
Jack> That's why I OFTEN say "It takes the time it takes..." and that tends to differ for each individual. There
Jack> are SO many variables that can affect that. The REALLY IMPORTANT THING IS THAT YOU DIDN'T GIVE UP, and NOW check what's happening for you!
Guy> Yes, I'm continuing to have new experiences after doing this for 16 months or so.
yomo> Well - I started seeing a therapist - that has made a big difference - here it is - self-acceptance - really - not just the idea of it - is the key I think - or one of them
yomo> Because in some ways my anxiety level could be through the roof these past month - but it is the opposite.
Jack> CONGRATULATIONS for following up and finding a competent therapist! Check out the great benefits as a result. READERS PLEASE NOTE! Guy may have a thought or two about benefits of counseling as well. hmmm? :-)
yomo> It is understandable to be impatient - but it gets in the way - so you have to forgive yourself - wink at yourself - and say - it's okay if you're impatient
Jack> [YES!]
yomo> you have to be your own friend.
Guy> Yes, I agree that that the RIGHT person can really help you get "un-stuck" in a big way.
Jack> Yomo, I love that statement that you need to be (i.e. learn to become) your own friend! Whew you are really getting WISE!
yomo> btw - I mentioned KSMO to her - and she has the disc - though has not pursued it - but remember I told you the MD i saw wasn't interested in pursuing
yomo> Takes courage to mention this to someone else (for me at least)
yomo> especially after the MD's reaction
yomo> But then she knew all about it - and sees it as a major therapeutic tool.
Jack> Which person knew all about it? The MD or the therapist?
yomo> The therapist - the MD was not interested.
Jack> That's great to hear that the therapist is familiar with it. Please tell her I welcome any contact, questions, observations, etc.! I invite her
Jack> to email me or call me any time to discuss any specifics and how it may be used in therapeutic practice.
yomo> I will.
Jack> Thanks! Well, yomo, again congratulations! BIGtime! May we go ahead and
Jack> pass the Talking Stick to Guy for a bit?
yomo> yup 8?)
Guy> Thanks!
yomo> me too.
Guy> Hey, Yomo. Good for you for getting the support you need. I was very suspicious of "therapists" for a long time,
Guy> and still, I think that there are far too many not-so-helpful among that crowd, but I've had the good
Guy> fortune to run into a few really good ones. And, I think it's true that self-acceptance at a DEEP level,
Guy> not just in "thought" but beyond that, is a major key to making progress with this technique.
Guy> My wife and I actually did some of that kind of work this week, working with someone who I respect deeply.
Guy> And, I wanted to share an experience I've had with KSMO since then.
Jack> By all means, please!
Guy> Normally, I have been exploring KSMO solo, but my wife is familiar with the practice. I think she's
Guy> always been skeptical that she could ever relate to it, she didn't think she could relate to it.
Guy> She's listened to the program but we haven't done much with the practice together.
Guy> Also, my practice has always been more or less at the "incredible Echo Effects" level. I've rarely used
Guy> much stimulation, and certainly never enough to get me close to the PONR. I've had some beautiful
Guy> experiences this way, pleasure more than a typical ejaculatory orgasm for me.
Guy> But, I've not used the technique as a way to "bypass" ejaculation, because I hadn't ever come close to
Guy> ejaculation when practicing solo.
Guy> SO, a day or so ago my wife and I were having intercourse, and as sometimes happens, I was very
Guy> aroused and felt like I was going to ejaculate. I could also tell that she wasn't very close to having an orgasm,
Guy> and I was thinking of stopping or slowing down to allow some of my excitement to pass. I was trying deep
Guy> breathing and it wasn't helping me slow down that excitement. For whatever reason, I decided to let out
Guy> a few Key Sounds, and for me, I wasn't able to slow down the rising excitement from triggering the ejaculation.
Guy> BUT
Guy> As I was just about to ejaculate, I just let out a huge roar with it.
Guy> And, although I >DID< ejaculate (remember I've never practiced this as ejaculation control), I was very
Guy> surprised to see that my wife had a strong orgasm right after my roar.
Jack> WONDERFUL!
yomo> wow.
Guy> She was so surprised by it that she didn't know what to say.
Jack> :-)
yomo> smile.
Jack> Old Koan: "Words fail."
Guy> She said it felt like a "clitoral" orgasm to her, even though she was having no clitoral stimulation at the time,
Guy> and she said she wasn't even close - it took her totally by surprise.
Jack> May I make a few brief comments?
Guy> Please. I was hoping you would!
Jack> :-) Thanks! First, within our Key Sound Multiple Orgasm Trigger frame of reference... her
Jack> strong response was in effect, ECHO EFFECTS in response to YOUR use of the Key Sound, especially Key Sounds, with
Jack> all of that energy in them, followed by your spontaneous orgasm-filled roar. Also,
Jack> that "totally by surprise" theme is quite prevalent with people who have been practicing the Protocol, and is
Jack> often reported e.g. as "I wasn't expecting anything, and then it happened." So even though she personally
Jack> hasn't been involved in conscious practice of the KSMO Protocol, her responses are nevertheless consistent
Jack> in response to the effects of YOUR practice! I hope at some point she will agree to explore the Key Sound in her own way, on her own timing, since
Jack> at the time you described, if she felt comfortable enough to exercise the option, her use of the KS following a response
Jack> such as she had might trigger some enjoyable additional experiences. AND it is WONDERFUL to hear the way your practice
Jack> IS finding it's way, using its own path, into your lovemaking. Congratulations to BOTH of you!
Guy> Thanks!
Guy> Yes, I think she's more interested now.
Jack> LOL!
Jack> YAY!
yomo> 8?)
Guy> I do have a question. Given what's happened, I'm interested in shifting my KSMOT practice somewhat
Guy> from deep exploration of Echo Effects with no erection and almost no stimulation, which I've gotten fairly
Guy> good at, to exploring ejaculation 'bypass' more. My gut tells me that the right thing for me to do is to
Guy> increase stimulation somewhat, maybe more like the amount of stimulation I might have when having
Guy> intercourse, and explore using the Key Sound. From what I've read of your suggestions though, to
Guy> learn this method best, I should continue to use just an occasional bit of stimulation. I'm wondering
Guy> if my "gut" reaction to explore more stimulation might be counterproductive? Any thoughts?
Jack> Yes, thanks for raising this question!
Jack> The "single-touch" stimulation guideline is for when you are in the beginning stages of practice... basically
Jack> until you start getting some noticeably strong Echo Effects. I've been rather adamant in my recommendation of
Jack> that approach because of the very strong tendency, especially in men, to switch gears and "go for" ejaculation through increased
Jack> stimulation in order to relieve that "pent up" feeling that yomo was talking about earlier. However,
Jack> once you really have that super-low stimulation practice dialed in and are noticing the connection between
Jack> that practice and the manifestation of noticeably strong and pleasurable Echo Effects, then by all means
Jack> feel free to experiment! Once again, the results will be your guide... the Echo Effects will be your guide. I want
Jack> to clarify that Guy at your stage of practice even in solo practice you might find it productive to explore
Jack> using the Key Sound and the relaxing breathing while using enough stimulation to lead you to ejaculation. I have
Jack> no absolute rule against that. On the contrary! What you are likely to discover is that those
Jack> ejaculatory orgasms may become **surprisingly** intense! My seeming "obsession" about low stimulation
Jack> has really been to address that tendency I mentioned above about dealing with the "pent up" feeling or
Jack> switching to higher stimulation BEFORE learning (viscerally!) the power of using the method at amazingly low levels of stimulation. Does that help clarify things for you?
Guy> yes. I think it does. One benefit I got from some of the "work" I've done this last week with my wife
Guy> is that I was able to see how I was stuck in some areas of my life. The therapist I was working with
Guy> gave me strong encouragement to explore what she called "phallicness". Some of that involves
Guy> facing fears, some involves getting out of some bad situations I'm in. But I sense that it is related
Guy> to this (KSMOT) practice as well, as in, I've explored it deeply in a "subtle, gentle" way, but I haven't
Guy> explored it in a very "yang" way. Maybe it's time for me to do that.
Guy> I'm done.
Jack> Yeah I agree! I REALLY appreciate your comments today!
Jack> (agree with what you said, not about your being done... LOL!) What your comments
Jack> do is they give us the opportunity to REDEFINE phallicness, within the context of the KSMO practice. As
Jack> you were talking, it occurred to me is that "phallicness" is a great term for "going for it!" energy. And there is DEFINITELY
Jack> value in having access to that kind of energy in many phases of life! To the extent that I'm aware of your career, you've demonstrated
Jack> a great deal of that in many areas of your life, and now seems like a good time to explore it more in this intimate realm. In sexuality,
Jack> in the minds of most men in particular, that "going for it" until now has usually meant "going for more STIMULATION", but
Jack> our KSMO practice gives us the opportunity to redefine that to "going for more AROUSAL and INTIMACY" (whoa! can be scary stuff!).
Guy> Yes, agreed. I like that (re)definition. I actually think that in my career, a lot of my success has
Guy> come for reasons other than phallicness, and a number of my setbacks have happened due to
Guy> a lack of embracing the "knowing what I want and going for it" energy. So, it's been an interesting week.
Jack> To say the least, eh?
Guy> Yep.
Jack> I would just say that as you explore using more stimulation, different kinds of stimulation, etc., just do so
Jack> in small increments and check in on the Echo Effects to determine if you're still "on the signal line." That is,
Jack> as you add the stimulation, are you feeling new kinds of Effects? Are they (at least perhaps in some instances, though
Jack> not necessarily all) stronger, more pleasurable? After the session are you feeling filled and fulfilled (i.e., full-filled) or left wanting, etc. By all means explore. Because
Jack> we are really "getting" the fractal nature of this Key Sound Triggered- erotic response domain, it's pretty clear
Jack> that we are JUST BEGINNING to map the variety of experience, and the variants of KSMO practice may lead. That all seems resonant and good to me!
Jack> One addit'l thought:
Jack> The important distinction for me, and a heads up especially to newbies, is that the "green light" to vary the levels
Jack> of stimulation to me seems to be more likely to be productive if that option is taken AFTER a person
Jack> has learned to experience notably strong (although not necessarily fully orgasmic) Echo Effects, rather than
Jack> resorting to more stimulation (to try to "make" Echo Effects happen) INSTEAD of first learning how to use
Jack> the very low-stimulation pattern to establish the initial connection between the Key Sound practice and the resultant automatic Echo Effects.
Jack> What do you both think about that?
yomo> I agree - it seems like the key is observing rather than stimulating
Guy> I think it makes a lot of sense.
Guy> I can honestly say that I've had some VERY intense echoes that I'd call orgasms from this practice,
Guy> but I don't know that I've ever ever had that "pent up" feeling during KSMO, not even gotten close to it.
yomo> I have.
yomo> I think it completely - for me - a mental activity.
Guy> But, I'd like to learn how to "express" that pent-up feeling to get past ejaculation, which makes me think
Guy> I might need to give a bit more stimulation to generate some of that "pent-up" feeling to express
Jack> Um... "go for it!" ;-P
Guy> I'll stop now.
Guy>
yomo> The over-stimulation reaction is more of a result of a mental process
Jack> Yomo, re: your statement about feeling the pent-up feeling. Are you saying that you've felt this during the KSMO practice?
yomo> Yes - but I think this mental process was the "issue"
yomo> I have really been on the wrong track for most of my time -
yomo> I am only just seeing it differently
yomo> now
yomo> Even with barely any stimulation
yomo> I can end up in the over-stimulated - can't hold it back - place
yomo> ejaculation seems like for me is a mental
yomo> I can't think of the word
yomo> like giving up
yomo> surrender to the inevitable
yomo> but the mental state is this person who is very uptight and anxious and needs something to happen to relieve the tension
yomo> instead of a calm and loving observer who is smelling the roses
yomo> did that make sense?
Jack> Definitely! I also want to remind you of how far you've come already in this practice, since you've been
Jack> reporting some definite "softening" of that uptightness, and some very exciting emotional opening! Please don't be hard on yourself about the past! :-) Meanwhile,
Jack> as you first begin feeling like things are building up, what happens to your Key Sounds? Do they stay the same? Or do they change in any way?
yomo> yeah - less relaxed - If I go - I just lose it -
yomo> become Woody Allen
yomo> .
Jack> Are you saying you feel that the Key Sounds become less relaxed?
yomo> yes.
yomo> strained - not deep and resonant - I must say that every day what I was doing yesterday seems like it was wrong
Jack> How about in volume? Do they seem to stay at about the same sound level, get softer? or get louder?
yomo> Louder.
Jack> Are you ok with their becoming louder?
yomo> yes.
yomo> but,
yomo> I don't know whether to talk about the past or now.
Jack> What's your hunch?
yomo> Now, I am just more interested, more observing - less worried.
yomo> But I think it may be useful to talk about the past.
Jack> Makes sense. RE: the louder aspect,
yomo> Okay -
yomo> I would be going along just fine - noticing echoes - mostly lower body -
yomo> and then it would start to get more intense -
Jack> when the pent up feeling is happening, and you're noticing the Key Sounds becoming louder - albeit somewhat more strained,
yomo> then my mind would say - "this may be it, my friend"
Jack> At that point do you continue stimulation or pause it?
yomo> really - I have been almost no stimulation.
yomo> I just having one finger on the perineum - not even moving.
Jack> Wow that's great! k. thanks for clarifying. Ok you're mind says "This may be it, my friend,"
Jack> how many relaxing breaths between each Key Sound during that time?
yomo> and then - it either goes away - or builds to an ejaculation - and in some ways the ejaculation is just a mental decision -
yomo> ahhhhhhhh - there you go - I think I probably forgot about that part...
yomo> heh heh
Jack> :-)
Jack> No worries, mate! Lesson Learned. :-)
yomo> this is it - quick - get it before it gets away
Jack> Ah so you kinda slip into chasing the fawn a bit?
Jack> [i.e., "chasing" the orgasm]
yomo> yeah - I can catch that thing - look how small it is.
Jack> LOL, I hear ya Brother! Been there, for sure!
Jack> I'd like to make two suggestions, if I may?
yomo> please.
Jack> Thanks! First, when possible (and it's ok that that's not *always* possible), remember to insert
Jack> an additional one, two, or? relaxing breaths between each Key Sound, ok?
yomo> yup.
Jack> Great! Then, imagine that you are gathering up all of that building up energy, that pent up energy,
Jack> and then you are sending it out into the universe THROUGH that next Key Sound. ok?
yomo> yahhhh - 8?)
Jack> I even imagine that I am "ejaculating" that energy THROUGH the Key Sound. I invite you to explore that, k?
yomo> hmmmm... not ejactly sure what that means
yomo> but I can ponder it.
Jack> [nice pun from your subconscious!]
Jack> [re: ejactly ;-) ]
yomo> 8?)
Jack> Yeah ponder... For me, I actually visualize a column of intense orgasmic sound energy flowing out of my
Jack> mouth as I make the Key Sound.
yomo> [nice delay effect.]
Jack> :-)
Jack> Also, VERY important:
Jack> If you happen to ejaculate during practice, THAT IS NOT A FAILURE... IT IS AN OPPORTUNITY TO LEARN MORE,
Jack> and as I've said, and many others have likewise reported, those ejaculations tend to be accompanied by
Jack> (often, anyway) a LOT more pleasurable that pre-KSMO ejaculations. Not a bad "booby prize" in my book! :-)
Jack> Actually, no "booby" in it at all, it's just
Jack> where your body wisdom wants to take you at that time!
Jack> Guy, is there anything you'd care to add to this discussion?
Guy> gosh, well, I guess I'm feeling a bit "left out" that I haven't had the opportunity to deal with this
Guy> "problem" of "slipping over the edge". Maybe it's because I started so slow, or something, but I guess
Guy> I haven't really connected my KSMO practice to anything even close to ejaculation. For me it's like there
Guy> have been two modes - intense and subtle and beautiful and non-ejaculatory, never an erection or any
Guy> thought of ejaculation, and the other mode - more traditional sexual activity. For some reason,
Guy> I've not yet "integrated" the two.
Guy> (end)
Jack> Even tho
Jack> you haven't experienced the pent up phenom, when your Echo Effects have been stronger, have you
Jack> ever explored that intention of directing all of that energy back out through your Key Sounds?
Guy> Yes, although that has been a stumbling block for me. The first time I ever felt like I expressed energy
Guy> at high intensity through the Key Sound was a couple days ago, and I didn't realize I sent it until my wife
Guy> "got" it
Jack> "Sounds" like it might be worth exploring a wee bit more, what do you think?
yomo> 8?)
Guy> Yea, I've tried, but it has always felt "forced". I haven't tried solo practice since then, so I guess I'll see
Guy> if anything has shifted.
Guy> I need to go, Yomo - it's been wonderful listening to you - sounds like some major progress. Jack, I'm sure we'll talk again!
Jack> Sounds like a good plan re: solo practice, Guy. I hope you'll keep us posted on the findings.
yomo> See Ya Guy - thanks for your story and observations
Jack> Guy b4 you go,
Jack> I would just say that in addition to the guideline of "let your Echo Effects be your guide" I would like to append: "Let your wife's Echo Effects ALSO be your guide!" :-)
yomo> 8?)
Guy> Yes, agreed
Guy> Thanks!
Jack> Ok Brother, CONGRATULATIONS to you AND your wife for the new openings,
Jack> and for pursuing the counseling that you both deserve. It really seems to be paying off!
Jack> Talk with you next time!
Guy> Thanks, Jack! Bye
yomo> Hi sonoran!
sonoran_jaguar> Hi - guess I better find a shorter handle...
Jack> C.U. Guy! Hey sonoran_jaguar, Bienvenidos!
Jack> Maybe we can just call you "jag" or something for short. That'll work fine!
yomo> or sono
Jack> Yeah, you'll get the idea, I'm sure! I believe
Jack> sono-jag that this is your first time here, is that correct?
sonoran_jaguar> Muchas gracias... if your memory is good, you may remember a moniker of "leftfield" from a couple of years ago. Only showed up twice...
Jack> Ah ok! WELCOME BACK to the discussion!
sonoran_jaguar> Came back for some suggestions about structure - as you can see, I don't stick with it.
Jack> No problems! The important thing is that when the time
Jack> felt right, you picked up the thread again, AND YOU CHECKED IN! That's perfect!
Jack> Please meet yomo, who has fairly new at this but earlier in the chat
Jack> has reported some very encouraging progress. It'll all be in the transcript when posted to the Forum.
sonoran_jaguar> If there are any archive postings you can point me to - what you suggest on a daily/weekly basis - I'm sure it's individual
Jack> Some aspects are individual, but there are themes and patterns which link us.
sonoran_jaguar> but I could use some ideas about what to do daily/weekly
sonoran_jaguar> Or even just how to keep the practice going period.
Jack> You've come to the right place!
Jack> For the readers, would you please share generally where you are typing from, and if ok with you, your age, marital status, orientation, etc. AND how long you've been practicing, etc.
Jack> Then we'll get down to biz and answer your questions.
sonoran_jaguar> I'm in the SW US, age 41, straight, divorced with a steady girlfriend.
sonoran_jaguar> I bought Jack's seminar for the first time probably four years ago, then ordered a new copy a couple of years ago
sonoran_jaguar> Each time I listened 2 or 3 times, practiced about a month, but for some reason didn't keep it going.
Jack> k. Thanks!
Jack> OK, first question, have you downloaded
Jack> the latest version (20050127) of the pdf document called "The Multiple Orgasm Trigger Protocol Summary Update"?
sonoran_jaguar> No.
Jack> Ah! Ok! JAG, That is step one! Please send me a quick email with "jaguar" in the subject line, and I will point you to it.
sonoran_jaguar> Ok thanks.
yomo> did you notice anything interesting?
sonoran_jaguar> Yes, I think I got some of the Echo Effects.
Jack> Excellent re: Echoes. What Echo Effects have you noticed?
Jack> That pdf document is VERY important to read through. It'll help you fine tune your practice!
Jack> Of course, we're happy to answer your questions here too!
sonoran_jaguar> Not sure if these are echoes, but basically just extra pleasure when doing the 4 breaths between Key Sounds.
Jack> Yep sounds like Echoes to me!
Jack> First recommendations are to
Jack> go ahead and send me that email so I can make sure you get a look at the pdf document. I
Jack> recommend you save it to disk and print hard copy, and give it a careful read
Jack> before your next practice session.
Jack> The next issue then would be to make sure
Jack> you are articulating the Key Sound correctly. It sounds like you are at least
Jack> in the ballpark on that because you ARE experiencing some Echo Effects.
sonoran_jaguar> Ok, if I reply to the chat announcements I get, will that get to you?
Jack> Yes, just cut all the text that I sent you and say who you are (i.e. jaguar) and I'll get that info to you.
Jack> You should also download the most recent version of the audio seminar, and my email to you
Jack> will make sure you have the link and username and pwd for that.
sonoran_jaguar> So, do you think something like 10 minutes of Key Sound/breathing w/o stim would be a good way to lay a foundation?
sonoran_jaguar> A day I mean
Jack> That's what I detail in that pdf document. I recommend about 20 minutes, but not really much more than that,
Jack> AND
Jack> to take AT LEAST one day off BETWEEN each practice session. That helps eliminate burn-out tendencies,
Jack> helps you SLOW DOWN so you don't slide into the trap of trying to chase after the orgasms and then getting frustrated, etc. AND
Jack> It's really amazing how FREQUENTLY people start experiencing quite noticeable Echo Effects on the days BETWEEN practice sessions!
sonoran_jaguar> Great. Exactly the kind of advice I'm looking for. I'll hold my questions until I read the latest.
Jack> No need to "hold back" your questions. :-) That's what we're here for, and these transcripts
Jack> help people reinforce basic concepts even tho they may heard or read them b4. Also,
Jack> one other thing if I may:
sonoran_jaguar> I'm the type that pushes, and I
sonoran_jaguar> whoops
Jack> No prob. Hang on just a sec: RE: Key Sound articulation, you might consider getting the recently released followup audio seminar
Jack> "Multiple Orgasm Trigger Key Sound Training Seminar for Both Men and Women" via my shopping cart. It's
Jack> devoted entirely to demonstration (a 20 minute "follow along" demo) of me articulating the Key Sound followed by 3 regular relaxing breaths. Some
Jack> people play it while they practice and that helps them tune, and another suggestions is to play it during practice,
Jack> and record the session (or some part of it, e.g. five min or something) and then compare the way
Jack> you hear yourself making the Key Sound to the way you hear me demonstrating it. That seminar then has another
Jack> 35 minutes of lecture that demos INcorrect ways of articulating, immediately compare with correct articulation, plus other tips.
Jack> RE: the pushing you mentioned,
Jack> that's exactly why I wrote that Protocol Summary because people like you continue to teach me how to teach you
Jack> and one of the things y'all taught me is that taking a day off between each session helps you
Jack> SLOW DOWN and begin to release that urge to push or chase after of "go for" these multiples. No need to feel bad
Jack> about that tendency, nearly every male on the planet, and many females also have been enculturated to that tendency. We have
Jack> also learned however that this is an instance where LESS (stimulation) definitely leads to MORE (arousal, Echo Effects, and ultimately non-ejac continuous wave multiple orgasms!).
sonoran_jaguar> Yeah, things that require steady and persistent practice in anticipation of a BIG future reward are tough. I never quite learned circular breathing on the digeridoo either... if you focus on the fact that you haven't "gotten it" yet rather than your actual experience in the present, it's a lot harder to learn...
yomo> yup...
Jack> That's a KEY INSIGHT, Jag!
sonoran_jaguar> Jack I'm curious - I imagine you've considered teaching via phone conference -- not as accessible for non US folks, but you have the advantage of sound...
Jack> Yeah I've considered that, but then there's no easily accessible transcript. Now with internet phone
Jack> there may be a way to do it and archive the audio though. I'll definitely toss that in the hopper!
sonoran_jaguar> Ah yes. Didn't think of the archive.
Jack> Dunno if you know, but I also offer one to one phone consultation.
Jack> http://www.multiples.com/multiple-or...hing-info.html
sonoran_jaguar> Yeah - I think once I work through the latest stuff I may be ripe for that.
Jack> Sounds great jag. The REALLY IMPORTANT THING is that... YOU CAME BACK!!!
Jack> :-)
sonoran_jaguar> As the Buddhists say... better not to start. But if you start, better to finish. Not sure I agree with the first part, but I definitely agree with the second!
Jack> btw I checked my email jack (at-sign) multiples.com but haven't seen any email with "jaguar" in the subject line. Please re-send.
sonoran_jaguar> Oh sorry I was waiting for when we are done. I'll do it now.
Jack> I would say "better to continue" rather than "finish" as this practice is fractal and open-ended!
sonoran_jaguar> Well said
Jack> :-) Thanks!
Guy> Jack, I'm back. Hey, that rhymes too, yomo!
Jack> BULLETIN FROM GUY!!!
Jack> Take it away GUY!!!
yomo> 8?)
Guy> So, I feel a little weird mentioning this, but I left this chat, took care of a phone call I needed to make,
Guy> and then decided I would explore a bit of solo practice - the first time since my wife and I did this
Guy> counseling work last week. I was VERY surprised... Had to come back to post.
Guy> Just tried a bit of KS, clothes on, very very very little stimulation.
Guy> It's interesting, nothing was happening at first, and then I tried to feel that "masculine, phallic" energy in me, and then everything just kind of fell into place.
Guy> I was also thinking about what the counselor talked to me about.. "holding on to yourself" during surrender rather than "just let yourself go",
Guy> and for some reason when I felt myself holding on - i.e. knowing who I was, what I wanted, and "holding on" while still surrendering (yes, I know that sounds like a conflict, but that's the best I can describe it) - things just got very intense very easily - 3-4 orgasms, about 30-40 seconds each, with clear stomach and PC muscle contractions.
Guy> This is a big deal for me. I've feel like I had mastered the sound, the technique, the breathing, everything,
yomo> 8?o
Guy> but it still felt a bit "difficult" to "really get going". This was very different, almost like it was difficult to get it to stop.
Guy> and I don't think I can say I've ever had muscles involved to this level before.
Guy> Not sure if it will be that way next time, but I definitely think there's something to working through
Guy> one's emotional issues that's required. The funny thing is, I don't think I would have known that was
Guy> holding me back - but having done that work something is clearly different.
Jack> CONGRATULATIONS ON YOUR GRAND OPENING, GUY!!!
Guy> Anyway, wanted to mention that.
Jack> Thanks VERY much for popping back into channel to give us that (very!) hot off the press bulletin!
yomo> wow!
sonoran_jaguar> Guy, I came in late. Without revealing any more than you want to, could you say any more about what kind of issue you were working on in counseling?
yomo> I want to understand this "holding on" idea.
Guy> Well, I guess I would say I was working on "normal" marriage issues.
Guy> There's a good book called "Passionate Marriage" by David Schnarch which details the process that we went through.
sonoran_jaguar> Thought I recognized "holding on to yourself".
Guy> Although I'd read the book, I still felt stuck - but getting some personal direction was WAY helpful. Everything became far more meaningful.
Guy> Yea, the holding on thing is interesting. The idea is that you can't really learn to "let go" and surrender if
Guy> don't also have a solid sense of 'self'.
Guy> I don't know exactly what they mean by that, but I think I'm starting to get an idea of it.
sonoran_jaguar> ...my (former) marriage...
sonoran_jaguar> amazing.. thanks.
Guy> you were going to say something about your former marriage but it didn't get out there. Maybe you reconsidered.
yomo> dang it, what did I miss?
Guy> Yomo, I think you missed my comment about "holding on".
yomo> yeah - can I get the transcript? that was my question.
Guy> I just said the idea of the "holding on" thing is that you can't learn to "let go" and surrender if you don't
Guy> have a solid sense of self. I'm not sure what they meant by that, but I feel like I'm starting to get an idea about it.
Guy> Jack, I don't know if that makes sense to you or not - this holding on thing. Sort of seems counter to your
Guy> "surrender" thing but I don't think it is.
yomo> who are they?
yomo> it makes sense dude -
Guy> "They" being the "Passionate Marriage" guys (David Schnarch and his wife, Ruth).
Guy> quick plug -- www.passionatemarriage.com
Guy> I think it's on Jack's web site also.
Jack> Passionate Marriage is offered in my shopping cart: Audio Seminar™
Jack> I HIGHLY recommend that book!
yomo> even for a single guy
Jack> Most definitely!
yomo> actually while we were chatting my ex called and didn't leave a message - I *69'd her
yomo> okay.
Guy> Jack, any comment about the "surrender" vs "holding on" question?
Guy> Maybe it's one of those Buddhist non-dual things
yomo> yeah - often opposite things are equally true.
Jack> One sec.
Jack> First, a more precise link to the Passionate Marriage book is:
Jack> https://multiples.com/2click/index.h...ionatemarriage
Jack> I experience the surrender/holding on dynamic as one of those Divine Paradoxes,
Jack> just as is "using LESS stimulation leads to MORE arousal!".
yomo> you can't surrender what you don't have.
Jack> WOW VERY well said, yomo!
Guy> yea, that makes sense!
Guy> That sounds like how it FEELS.
yomo> it was the echoes talking.
Jack> TEACH! YOMOECHOES!
yomo> they're very shy though....
Jack> Yep, like the fawn that Andi talked about!
Jack> RE: holding on... versus letting go... The paradox is that we hold on to the knowledge that we'll be ok as we open those Gates to the Thousandfold Pleasure, but we must LET GO of the need to CONTROL what's happening.
Guy> YES, THATS IT.
Guy> Hey the link to passionate marriage isn't on your "other-sexuality-resources" links anymore.
Jack> Passionate Marriage link is in the shopping cart itself: https://multiples.com/2click/index.h...ionatemarriage
Jack> other resources area (looking for a volunteer willing to help build up that area!) is for resources I don't stock in the shopping cart.
Guy> Anyway, I'm feeling INCREDIBLE gratitude right now to having found you, as well as the PM book.
Jack> :-)
Jack> That is REALLY WONDERFUL GUY!!! WOOOOOOO WHOOOOOOOOOO!!!!
Jack> Oh Man I am BLISSED by your report, Guy!
yomo> both of your stories - very inspiring - and I felt them too...
Jack> READERS PLEASE ALSO NOTE THE POTENTIAL BENEFITS OF SHOWING UP FOR THE CHAT!!!
Jack> :-)
Guy> AND, as you said, the benefits of DEEP self-acceptance, self-validation, and getting the help required.
Jack> Guy, by your presence and presents here today you have demonstrated a NUMBER of very important secrets to success with this practice!
Jack> Yeah man! Those were on the list of traits I was about to enumerate!
Jack> If I may?
Jack> ?
Guy> Please.
yomo> go.
Jack> Thanks!
Jack> Guy, by this report you have role-modelled a NUMBER of VERY IMPORTANT BEHAVIORS/ATTITUDES THAT LEAD TO SUCCESS WITH THIS PRACTICE:
Jack> First, PERSISTENCE: You have been with the practice for about 16 months by your report,
Jack> and "even though" you didn't experience multiples until today (did I get that right?),
Jack> YOU DIDN'T GIVE UP!!!
sonoran_jaguar> bowing..
Jack> You took time away from practice when you needed to.
Jack> You took time away from posting to the Forum and participating in the chats when you needed to,
Jack> but you DID post to the Forum, you HAVE been active in the chats, and you DID come back to the chat today
Jack> AND YOU GOT MORE UNDERSTANDING AND INSIGHT as a result, while at the same time inspiring all of us, MYSELF INCLUDED!!!
Jack> AND...
Jack> YOU GOT THE PROFESSIONAL HELP YOU NEEDED TO CONTINUE OPENING EMOTIONALLY (going to considerably great lengths to GET that help, too!)
Jack> AND YOU ***CONTINUED*** to stay as OPEN and EMOTIONALLY HONEST as you could be, even when that honesty led you to acknowledge at times that you felt shut down, or frustrated, or... baffled! BUT...
Jack> YOU DIDN'T GIVE UP! YOU KEPT COMING BACK to the practice, the Forum, and the chats, and...
Jack> BADA-BING!!! MORE OPENING!!! MORE SUCCESS!!!
Jack> What a GREAT model for success in this practice!!!
Jack> [You may blush, now!] :-)
Guy> Yea, thanks. I am BLUSHING!
Jack> ;-P
Jack> I had a HUNCH, Brother!
Jack> :-)
Guy> You have been VERY patient and helpful with me. I think you've known for a long time that I've felt stuck.
Jack> Just BREATHE AND LET IT IN!!!
Jack> Yep. And I also knew that you took time off when you needed to, but (at least nearly-) ALWAYS HELD ON
Jack> to the INTENTION TO COME BACK TO YOUR PRACTICE.
Jack> MOST DEFINITELY it will be helpful, AND INSPIRING AND MOTIVATING.
Jack> As I've said many times,
Jack> THE GREATEST POWER OF THIS WORK IS IN THE ***STORIES***!
Guy> And you gave me the encouragement in the right places. I feel like I know what is different now, at some point I might try to write it up in a message to explain as it might be helpful for others.
Guy> Well, it wasn't like it wasn't EXTREMELY enjoyable even when I felt "stuck".
Jack> For sure re: "stuck" BUT THAT'S A GIFT, TOO, GUY! CUZ
Jack> You shared and MODELLED your willingness to COP TO YOUR VULNERABILITY! And that is REAL "macho power!" REAL "phallicness"... to ahem "STAND UP" and be VULNERABLE, and
Jack> continue to pursue EMOTIONAL HONESTY... That's the best path to success with this practice, as you
Jack> have MOST APTLY demonstrated by your presence and presents here today.
Guy> Yep.
Guy> Thanks, still blushing.
Guy> I definitely feel like something has shifted permanently for me. Will be interesting to see where it goes.
Jack> Keep blushin' and KEEP BREATHING! KEEP LETTING IT ***IN***, feel free to use Key Sounds to allow those feelings to permeate your whole being!
Guy> In retrospect it was not about the technique for me. I think I had the technique perfected in the first couple months.
Jack> Yep.
Jack> Please elucidate!
Guy> What I say could be taken a bit wrong, so I have to be careful, but I think for me it was a lot about learning to feel and get comfortable with
Guy> the "male" energy in me. Learning to accept my sexuality at a deeper level. Including the "dark" nature of that male side.
Jack> Please... "elucidate the 'dark' nature". :-)
Guy> It's harder for me to describe than to feel. I don't know how graphic to get, but it's what makes ****ing different than having sex.
Guy> You might have to edit that to fit your censors.
Jack> Not MY censors!
Guy> Does that make sense?
Jack> Yes! Please say a little more about the diff between ****ing and having sex.
Jack> adorn "making love".
Guy> Well, jeez, I don't know how to describe it too well. I guess it's hard to describe if you haven't experienced it.
Jack> Well it seemed like you had some intuitive sense of a diff between "****ing" and "sex". What diff?
Guy> I guess I see ****ing as including a bit of raw male aggression, but in a healthy way.
Guy> This stuff is tricky to talk about because I think it's so easily misunderstood.
Jack> RE: ****ing, imho: Yep. Esp if what you bring to it is based on mutual honesty and consent.
Jack> [the Yep was re: your comment about male aggression in a healthy way.]
Jack> how is that healthy-way ****ing different from "sex"?
Guy> I guess ****ing doesn't deny your "dark" aggressive side, but harnesses it in a healthy, erotic way, whereas "having sex" or "making love" to me implies repressing that side.
Guy> I've always repressed that side.
yomo> wow.
yomo> this is heavy shit.
Jack> hmmm interesting! Like "making love" is more "yin"? More... "polite"?
Guy> yea. Polite. That's a good description of me, last week.
Jack> Versus, e.g. maybe: "Doin' the NASTAY!"
Guy> Yes, exactly.
Jack> ;-p
yomo> me too - my whole life - it's a coping mechanism that works
Jack> I can dig it!
Guy> ONLY Works for a while, though. Then it ****s up your life.
Jack> You mean the "polite" (holding back) thing?
Guy> Well, using politeness and "seeking approval" as a coping mechanism.
yomo> yeah - of course being nice does not mean being repressed
yomo> but it can be
yomo> if it's forced.
Guy> Well, as I said, this is a complex subject, lots of ways to misconstrue and misunderstand it.
Jack> Yeah this particular issue merits an ongoing thread in the Forum!
Guy> Agreed.
yomo> yes.
Jack> Guy would you be willing to start it? Yomo, I hope you will contribute to it too!
sonoran_jaguar> Hmm - the way it comes to me is - that I
Jack> U2, jag, thanks for chiming in!
sonoran_jaguar> I've spent much of my life apologizing for my masculinity...keeping it safely in bounds so as not to upset anybody.
sonoran_jaguar> So I would say that ****ing requires an unabashed, unashamed masculinity
sonoran_jaguar> But not forced or inflated...
Guy> EXACTLY!!!!!
Guy> But as you said, not "keeping it safely in bounds so as not to upset anyone".
sonoran_jaguar> Not easy. I'n not used to having or handling that kind of power.
Jack> Right on! There are "bounds" and then there are "boundaries"... A VERY important distinction in my view.
Guy> YES!!!!!!!
sonoran_jaguar> Sad fact is - many women have been mistreated - like my current girlfriend - and are quite gunshy around aggression.
Jack> INFORMED MUTUAL consent, e.g.
Jack> And WITHIN that container: releasing the "bounds" through healthy INTERNAL relationship communication that supports healthy relationship communication.
Jack> RE: g/f gunshy etc.: AND RIGHTLY SO! That's what I mean by "emotional furballs" and the VITAL
Jack> importance of going to whatever appropriate lengths necessary to
Jack> acquire the TRULY COMPETENT and EMPATHIC COMPASSIONATE counseling
Jack> assistance to heal those wounds to free up that part of spirit and psyche
Jack> to be able to TOLERATE (and yes, even EN-JOY)
Jack> greater "bandwidth" of intimacy...
Jack> BOTH with SELF and with another.
Jack> I
Jack> M
Jack> H
Jack> O
Jack> :-)
Guy> I believe that a healthy person doesn't tolerate abusive behavior.
Jack> I agree.
Guy> I also believe that a healthy sexual woman doesn't tolerate repressing masculine energy during sex.
Jack> What do you others feel/think?
Guy> Frankly, right now, I don't give a damn.
Guy> Oh, wait!
Guy> I thought you asked me another trick question: What do I think others feel/think?
sonoran_jaguar> I'm so hurt
sonoran_jaguar> Hee hee
Guy> Was just giving a "gut" response - as in, do I care if people think I'm bad for saying this.
Guy> Honestly, I do care about this group. Ha!
Jack> No worries, mate... Seems like your finding your "growl" voice!
Jack> Pretty close to that roaring voice.
Guy> YEA, that's true . I'll shut up now.
yomo> Healthy - I think I am on the road to healthy - don't know how many healthy people there are - but there seem to be a lot of avenues towards health
yomo> this is one of the most powerful imho.
Guy> Yomo, do you mean "this" as in KSMO, or "this" as in accepting your masculinity, or both?
yomo> ksmo.
yomo> both.
yomo> They lean on each other -
yomo> .
Jack> Yeah, like that infinity symbol.
yomo> But - I think there is an unhealthy side as well to each mode of behavior
sonoran_jaguar> I can say - that in the brief time I was truly single, I had some eye-opening negative responses to "approval-seeking" masculinity. Probably from healthy women...
yomo> Demanding that your lover "****" you - show you their masculine side - can be unhealthy.
Jack> INFORMED
Jack> MUTUAL
Jack> CONSENT.
Guy> Yomo, why do you say that last part, that demanding that your lover "****" you can be unhealthy?
yomo> gentle is not bad either.
Jack> That's that infinity symbol flow of energy again, it seems, in a way.
Jack> The flow back and forth between the yin and yang within oneself as well as
Jack> with another.
yomo> Now I am having trouble writing this down.
yomo> I keep trying and deleting.
Guy> No worries, yomo, I've been there! (re trying and deleting!)
sonoran_jaguar> Yomo, I would say that over time, if the relationship if growing, that a lover would want you to be able to bring that masculine side into the relationship -- so in that sense there could be a desire that the man work through what's blocking it.
sonoran_jaguar> Don't mean you in particular...
yomo> The need to be ****ed - can be a way of hiding from things as well
sonoran_jaguar> Explain...
yomo> I am all I have to go by -
yomo> Maybe I am full of shit.
sonoran_jaguar> No way...
Guy> I agree with you yomo, that if that's the ONLY style, that's a problem.
Guy> But, I think it's reasonable, as SJ was saying, to ask a man to "work through what's blocking it".
Guy> IMHO, of course :;
Jack> ... as long as the time/place/partner is based on informed mutual adult consent.
yomo> Yes - I agree - and I would welcome a healthy version of it - I am just saying there is an unhealthy version as well.
sonoran_jaguar> Expecting the other person to take you a certain place -- every time -- is a burden.
Guy> A burden, as well as boring
Jack> Yeah the unhealthy version is the "stuff" we need to calmpost.
Jack> ...and to get the help we need to do so.
yomo> but sometimes it is hard to distinguish the healthy version from the unhealthy.
Jack> ...that same "help" can assist in clarifying that.
Jack> Learning to tell the difference is learnable, with the right assistance.
yomo> and even if it is unhealthy - it can be justified by an argument - referring to it as the healthy version.
yomo> yeah?
sonoran_jaguar> I'd still like to hear more from Yomo... about the unhealthy version. Not quite clear to me yet... (if you're willing yomo)
yomo> Obviously I am having trouble elucidating -
yomo> I think that it can be a compulsive need - rather than a healthy need.
Guy> YES! I agree with what you guys are saying. There is a difference between abusive ****ing and healthy ****ing. And some people do enjoy abusive ****ing, which doesn't make it healthy.
yomo> Like eating can be healthy - but it can also be used to salve and hide from other things - and end up being unhealthy because of its motivation
yomo> yeah - what you said Guy...
yomo> and I think ****ing doesn't necessarily have to be aggressive - but maybe I'm just being a hippy.
sonoran_jaguar> Not sure what I missed - sounded like sex as coping/drug
Jack> Mutual taste and consent.
Jack> :-)
Guy> I agree, yomo.
Jack> Me too.
sonoran_jaguar> If I may be so bold -- it sounds like you've experienced some kind of demand on you you don't like. Just a guess.
yomo> Well - I have been taking this whole thing in the other direction personally - and this is very eye opening.
yomo> more - insinuated disappointment
yomo> but the thing is - I am not saying the concept of ****ing is a problem for me -
yomo> just that it can be "off the mark".
sonoran_jaguar> Passionate Marriage has a discussion of ****ing...
Jack> It may not be what you need to grow, yomo. And... I like the reference jag is laying on you from PM.
yomo> I have been swimming into yin. Finding and appreciating the feminine in me. And I think I already lean that way - due to experience and nature.
yomo> I will definitely check it out.
yomo> And I realize that could be unbalanced as well.
yomo> there's a million ways to miss the mark.
Guy> RIGHT, YOMO! I think balance and ability to use both yin and yang at the appropriate times is the key. To clarify my usage of the term, I think gentle and sweet sex can also be ****ing. But it does involve a certain "intent" that isn't always there in other styles of sex.
yomo> intent.
yomo> please - more.
Guy> well, I think the PM book talks about "DOING" your partner and "BEING DONE".
Jack> yomo, there's also at LEAST a million ways to FIND the mark.
yomo> Like being fully who you are - looking in her eyes -
yomo> ?
Guy> that intent to "DO" your partner, even slowly and gently.
Guy> I think the book explains it a LOT better than I can in this chat. Hell, the whole book is about this subject to some extent !
Jack> If your partner consents to being done. To me that part's important too.
sonoran_jaguar> I think context matters a lot here. Someone who is using you, and is starting to say, "you don't fill my needs enough", is different from someone who values you, and wants to experience more/different with you.
Jack> And you/they consent to exploring that with you and communicating with you about it.
Guy> Absolutely, Jack.
yomo> I need to go for a walk.
Jack> A brief point I'd like to wedge in here b4 we wrap is
Guy> I need to go, hope I haven't thrown too much of a curveball in here!
yomo> man - no - it's all good - sorry if I made it seem like I was having a problem.
sonoran_jaguar> Likewise.
Jack> A brief point I'd like to wedge in here b4 we wrap is
Jack> that compulsive behavior is the person's subconscious attempts to
Jack> re-boot as it were, to find a functional behavior where there is none.
Jack> That's why in those instances it's appropriate if not imperative to
Jack> connect with *competent* counseling/therapy.
yomo> but if they think there is no problem - or that it's your problem?
Jack> The counseling in a way is midwifery to the ever-birthing new you as you learn more about yourself and the world.
yomo> Hey sono-jag - thanks for your thoughts.
Guy> CRAP! I missed a lot of that due to chat bug. Oh well, i'll get it from the transcript
sonoran_jaguar> see line above - doubly important to have a referee/more objective view when you are seeing things so differently
Jack> Yeah! VERY good point jag!
yomo> yeah - of course you both need to be willing to have a ref.
yomo> life can be very frustrating.
sonoran_jaguar> Sure yomo -- and please, articulate and defend your position in here, even if nobody's getting it. I think that is part of the masculinity that Guy was talking about.
sonoran_jaguar> a little late on that
Guy> ABSOLUTELY!
Guy> Right on, both of you.
Jack> Whoa that was a really good one jag re: defend your viewpoint/masculinity!
Guy> I want to say, I feel very privileged to have had this chat today, even if we didn't completely see eye-to-eye or communicate perfectly, where else can we talk about this kind of stuff!
Jack> I hope it'll be here.
yomo> yes - me too - very much appreciate this.
sonoran_jaguar> I think you guys somehow planned this out and set it up for my personal benefit...
yomo> heh heh - me too.
yomo> my personal benefit that is.
sonoran_jaguar> Anyways... c
sonoran_jaguar> might be a month before I can hit it again... but I promise, it won't be two years!
Jack> Having access to the Echo Effects energy I personally experience as a gift, that can help us continue to increase our understanding of the truth about what you guys have been discussing in here today. Wow yomo, you really took us deep! Thank you! And Guy and Jag, wow I feel like all 4 of us have been through some kind of Spirit Walk / Vision Quest Male Rite today. This chat is at 4 hours 30 plus... the second longest in the ten year history of this Forum!
Jack> I DO need to go to birthday party in a park now, and God and Goddess and Higher/other/whichever power bless thee (or your choice)!
Jack> That's great jag THANK YOU FOR HUGE GIFTS TODAY!
Jack> Guy, thank you for celebrating this GRAND OPENING with us today!!! WOWWWWWW!
Guy> This has been awesome. Thanks to all of you, especially you, Jack.
yomo> 8?)
Jack> Thanks all of you!
sonoran_jaguar> Jack you must be like one of those guys from Kung Fu hustle -- you've met your destiny. See y'all.
Jack> I'm gonna leave the channel open in case anybody has further thoughts, you're welcome to stay and discuss. I'll stay logged to get the whole transcript.
yomo> bye - thanks y'all.
Guy> bye, Yomo. Bye, Jag.
Session Close: Sat Jun 18 16:33:59 2005