• Our live global discussion was truly international this time as Drew (35, Michigan USA) and Jack (48, Oregon USA) were first joined by Darrin (28) from Calgary Alberta!
• Darrin begins by reporting that he has had the Second Edition of the Audio Seminar for about year, but doesn't feel he's been able to... "...make anything happen ... I still can't seem to get anywhere." [Note: We are now in our Fourth Edition of the Audio Seminar ™ and the significant improvements to it, along with the comprehensive extensive and exceptional followup assistance in the Live Forum have led to a much higher success rate. Also: the seminar comes with a money back guarantee!]
• Jack reviews some of the basics with Darrin re: practicing the Key Sound at low volume with no erotic stimulation, and using the 3 or 4 intervening regular breaths to locate the tingles, shivers, etc. as discussed in chat 0031 and suggests he review the Very Important Tips (Timing, Intro to Solo Practice, and Intro to Practice with a Partner) threads in the Live Forum .
• Suddenly Darrin's report changes to one of acknowledging a number of pleasurable sensations, only he'd been discounting them since they ultimately were leading to orgasm. This is actually what he meant by "nothing is happening, I'm not getting anywhere"!!! Translation: "I'm having lots of pleasurable feelings but they still are leading to ejaculation so I'm still saying I haven't made any progress at all."
• Fred (66, Utah USA) now joins the discussion and offers some feedback for Darrin, based on his early experiences and frustrations learning Male Multiple Orgasm.
• Darrin learns that he might be increasing stimulation too quickly because he's trying to maintain a constant erection (which is not necessary when learning Male Multiple Orgasm!).
• The other men reassure him that erections will cycle through the practice session, but the feelings of multiple orgasm can often be the most intense when there is NO erection! Instead of trying to maintain an erection, Darrin's invited to explore making timely, complete Key Sounds at increasing levels of excitement, but not to worry about trying to maintain erection.
• Jack reviews how to apply the use of the Key Sound to your practice at ever higher levels of excitement, in order to intensify the "different good feelings" (i.e. proto-orgasms and orgasms).
• Drew and Fred mention that they both noticed a generalized tingling as one of the first sensations that grew into Male Multiple Orgasm waves, pulses, etc.
• Drew describes the paradox of letting go of the urge to "go for it" (ejaculorgasm) and how relaxing into the tingles and other feelings that are happening in fact lead to the non-ejaculatory orgasmic sensations.
• Jack suggests redirecting the "go for it" energy into "going for" getting ALL of the pent up erotic energy into the SECOND part of the Key Sound, as one makes the complete sound.
• Next the men engage in a depth discussion about how to introduce these erotically-charged sounds to a potential sexual partner.
• Darrin then asks the group for suggestions regarding the urgency to ejaculate he usually feels when he begins this practice. Several suggestions are offered.
• After further dialogue, it comes out that Darrin in fact DOES experience "waves" after EVERY USE of the Key Sound™! Since he still tends to ejaculate during this process, he considered all of these new feelings "not it"!
• Jack suggests to Darrin that he reduce the erotic stimulation a LITTLE bit when he gets into the higher levels of arousal. Maybe just enough to "lose" an erection, but still high enough to feel those "waves" he's already been feeling after each use of the Key Sound!
• Drew then does a wonderful exposition on the importance of "relaxing into" these kinds of orgasms, in contrast to the high muscle tension typical of orgasm WITH ejaculation. Drew also characterizes this process as one of EXPANSION rather than contraction.
• Darrin follows up with a VERY IMPORTANT OBSERVATION about the similarities between "FMO" ("Female Multiple Orgasms") and "Male Multiple Orgasm" ("Male Multiple Orgasms").
• Discussion concludes with Drew's promise to talk more next time about his NEW DISCOVERY of strong pleasure waves in response to very light touches in his "lower penis" area (between the anus and top of the scrotum).

jack> Hello!

jack> Howdy Drew!!!

Drew> Hi Jack!!!

jack> Fred sed he might be joining us in a little while... social event... how are you?

Drew> I am well at the moment, and yourself?

jack> Well... bizzzzzy! I've just about finished final editing of the new Guide Book. Integrating the info from July 24 and Aug 7 chats, and generally tuning it. I'll send

jack> you a copy of the final version once it's ready. The Audio Seminar you have IS the final of the Third Edition. ovr

Drew> Cool! I haven't been able to give the new version my full

Drew> attention yet, but I really like what I've heard so far

Drew> I think congratulations are in order again Jack!

jack> Thanks Bud, hope it helps! I've learned a LOT from you guys this past year!!!

jack> Hey Darrin, welcome!

Darrin> Hello

jack> Was it easy enough to get in?

Darrin> yes

jack> Darrin, this is Drew from Michigan, age 35... I'm

jack> 48, in Ashland Oregon. Where you callin from and what's your age?

Darrin> Alberta, 28

Drew> Hi Darrin, WELCOME!

jack> How'd you hear about the chat?

Darrin> From the web pages

jack> And may I ask how you found the web pages? I'm always curious about that...

Darrin> I don't remember the exact order, but I stumbled across the tapes

Darrin> (which I have), and found some other stuff on the Web while surfing

jack> Cool! Email me your snail address and I'll send you a complimentary copy of the

jack> thoroughly revised and updated Third Edition of the Audio Seminar and Guide Book...

Darrin> That would be excellent. Will do later tonite.

jack> copy! Meanwhile, what questions or comments might you have?

Darrin> Personally, I have had the original Audio Seminar for about a year

Darrin> but I haven't really been able to make anything work.

jack> Has the info on the web site been helpful at all?

jack> e.g. the Chat transcripts?

Darrin> Well, it has been helpful in that I have gathered a lot of information, but not so in that

Darrin> I still can't seem to get anywhere

jack> Ok... Have you done any practice of the Key Sound at LOW volume, with NO erotic stimulation?

Darrin> Yes, from time to time

jack> What kinds of different feelings do you notice, if any?

Darrin> Well, I notice some sort of tingling, but I think it just might be hyperventilation

Darrin> Nothing particularly erotic

jack> ok... where's the tingling located?

Darrin> Everywhere.

jack> You mentioned hyperventilation... are you taking any

jack> regular breaths between Key Sound breaths? Just breaths like you normally are breathing, sitting at your keyboard or whatever...

jack> ovr

Darrin> I think when I do try just the key sound (which, to be honest, isn't all that

Darrin> often), I probably breath too deeply too much.

jack> Darrin, you might try a little more practice using the Key Sound on every 3rd or 4th breath, with no erotic stimulation, more or less like a mantra or chant...

Darrin> Hmmm... I will try

jack>[Drew got dropped from the network momentarily so Jack summarizes the possible missed dialogue]

jack> Drew, I was just

jack> having a discussion with Darrin about getting some of the "different good feelings" started.

jack> Darrin, you might take a look at the article on the web site called Introduction to Solo Practice. There's a link to it near the top of the Main Index in the section called Very Important Tips.

jack> Then you might look over the chat of July 24 for some additional tips.

Darrin> I have read all of those. Believe me, I have practiced.

Darrin> I just can't seem to zero in on whatever sensation I should be looking for

jack> copy on the practice, sorry it's so frustrating for you!

Darrin> Whatever I do, any sensations I feel seem to take me towards

Darrin> an ejaculation.

jack> ok... so SOMEthing IS happening! Sounds like you're talking about once you've got

jack> some stimulation going... Darrin this is Fred age 66/ 67-on-saturday from Utah. Fred,

jack> this is Darrin, 28, from Alberta!

Fred> Hello, Derrin!

Fred> Sorry, Darrin, I misspelled your name.ovr

Darrin> no problem

jack> Fred, Darrin was just reporting

jack> that altho he's practiced a great deal, he doesn't seem to feel anything but some tingling... then at some point whatever he IS feeling leads to ejaculation. He's a bit at a loss as to

jack> what to look for. Did I get that summary about right, Darrin?

Darrin> Yes, but the second part refers to when I practice while masturbating.

jack> OK. Fred, do you have any comments or suggestions?

Fred> Couldn't what you call "stim" be construed as masturbating, Jack?

jack> I would think so, that's why I prefer to use the term "self-pleasuring". Altho "masturbating" to me usually suggests more vigorous stimulation, etc.

jack> ovr

Fred> Masturbating seems to be directed at ejaculation,

Fred> whereas "practicing" seems to be aimed at toward where

Darrin> I can't seem to find the middle ground. I am either going towards ejaculation, stalling ejaculation, or losing arousal.

Fred> the feeling take you.ovr

jack> By arousal do you mean erection?

Darrin> Erection and general arousal. The sensations of masturbation fade as arousal fades.

jack> Ok... first, I suggest that as an experiment you forgo erection as a criterion of arousal...

jack> [Drew makes it back into the channel...]

jack> Drew gets the persistence award for this week!!!

Fred> Hi, Drew!

Drew> Hello Fred!

jack> To experience these kinds of orgasms, erection is not necessary. focusing on erection

Fred> The best sensations I have had have been without erection.ovr

Fred> Should say some of the best.ovr

jack> can actually be a distraction and can push you toward overstimulation, trying to get the flames fanned back up. The sensations we're looking for,

Drew> That goes for me too guys!

jack> Thanks guys! Get that Darrin, some of the best are without erection!

Darrin> I have ejaculated without having much of an erection before, but stimulation without an erection doesn't seem to provide much in the way of sensations.

Drew> Yet the penis is also very aroused and sensitive. ovr.

jack> The sensations we are looking for are very subtle at first.

jack> Tingling is one of the most notable, especially if you start to feel it while making the Key Sound

jack> softly, and using at least 3 or 4 regular breaths in between. This is very important, because it's often during the regular breaths

jack> that you have the opportunity to tune into any "different good feelings" HOWEVER SUBTLE... these are like a thread that leads to the orgasms...

jack> Another key, Darrin,

jack> is to make your focus of practice the making of the Key Sound correctly and completely, that is, BOTH parts... Key Sound™. I suggest you consider making this the

jack> focus of your practice rather than trying to get off. At least initially. Getting off is fun too, but it's a different focus than learning how

jack> to make the Key Sound correctly, which then jump starts the automatic waves or pulses.

jack> Then, if you pace yourself

jack> so that you don't add ANY erotic stimulation until you feel you are successfully

jack> making the complete Key Sound at low vol with no erotic stim in such a way that

jack> when you make it it feels kind of sensual or sexy to you. There is often a tendency for

jack> a person to say to himself "Yeah, that was more like it!"

jack> Then as you start hitting that resonance with the Key Sound, GRADUALLY add a LITTLE erotic stimulation, and begin timing the Key Sounds as I describe in the Timing article

jack> in the Very Important Tips. Even as you add a little stim, the focus remains on CORRECTLY AND COMPLETELY making the Key Sound, and using

jack> the intervening regular breaths to body scan for ANY tingles, twitches, pulses, shudders, or whatever... continuing to

jack> make the Key Sound correctly, one may continue to add erotic stim a LITTLE at a time, but

jack> do NOT be concerned about erection! Usually in this practice, erections will "cycle through" the process. Sometimes erect, sometimes not...

jack> The key is not to add more stimulation, whether or not you're "losing your erection", UNLESS you feel like you are still making the Key Sound in a way that resonates, that feels like, "yeah, that's it... SOMEthing is happening!" ... and be patient... it may

jack> be in your situation that the feelings will not start off as sexy! They just may be a lot of tingles and shudders and shivers and stuff for a while. ovr

Fred> The first "feelings" I had were nervous twitches

Fred> and shaking and a very pronounced tingling,

Fred> in the testicles. Good feels came after these.ovr

Drew> I usually get a lot of tingling too,,,

Drew> very pleasant. ovr.

Darrin> I will look for that.

jack> Great! Usually as

Fred> I should add that the above happened with no erection.ovr

jack> a person begins adding erotic stimulation, they "slip off" of making the Key Sound, especially the SECOND part, and THAT'S where the real power is, in getting the

jack> erotic energy that you ARE feeling, however minimal, into the SECOND part of the Key Sound. Usually ejaculation happens when use of the Key Sound ceases and stimulation INcreases... ovr

Darrin> So, are you guys that are successful with this able to do it with a woman without making her deaf?

Fred> Unfortunately, I cannot comment on that .. . yet, Drew.ovr

Drew> I've noticed that letting go of the 'go for it' can be a challenge...

Drew> RE: deaf, me neither, more's the pity.

jack> "Go for" puttin all of that energy into the sound!

jack> RE: partners...

Drew> that's realy good advice, Jack!

jack> It really helps to introduce a partner to this practice by doing the exercise I describe in Introduction

jack> to practice with a partner, which is also one of the Very Important Tips articles.

jack> Thanks Drew, that is THE essence

Darrin> A single guy does not always have the time to break in a parter :-/

jack> of this method: to learn how to CONTINUE to put the rising

jack> erotic energy INTO THE SOUND instead of into your penis!

jack> Well, it's not necessarily about breaking in... but

Fred> I don't see how you could do it with a partner on a one-time basis.ovr

jack> what can happen is that you can tell the partner, this is how I'm feeling about you,

jack> these feelings are coming from a very deep place in me...

jack> if it's a casual thing... the partner may think it's a joke. So just go for the usual fun

jack> and forget about making converts. This process when shared with a partner

jack> is about CONNECTION... energetic connection. And it can be VERY intense and PRIMAL and loving. I assure you there are definitely people who enjoy

jack> being on the receiving end of this kind of energy... but not everybody! It can

jack> be scary, or embarrassing, etc. the furballs in other words. This is erotic power, friends, and it WILL reveal the personal truths about someone!

Darrin> Even a one night stand can have certain emotional intensity. I just think the howling might be a little to freaky for some girls.

Fred> I agree, Darrin.ovr

jack> Yes it may, I think it's a question of how you communicate about it, and whether you

jack> talk about this at all before you're in the sack. I think it's a GREAT conversational topic!

Drew> I agree Jack. I wouldn't want to 'casually' share this with anyone.

Darrin> But, it would be nice to be able to achieve MMO, for the pleasure of both people involved.

jack> Yes it would be nice to be able to share, Darrin. I agree. I think a possible place to _begin the sharing_ is _by talking about it_.

Darrin> It would definately be an interesting topic of conversation, more so if I had it down. I would think a lot of women would find it intriguing.

Drew> The only female friend I

Drew> have talked to about this is VERY

Drew> curious, and asks me questions about it all the time

jack> Darrin, I think as you

jack> learn MMO, the dates issue will take care of itself. Especially if you talk about it before you're actually

jack> involved sexually... For one thing I found that when I'm feeling attracted to someone, these kinds of feelings and

jack> sounds start happening WELL before anybody is taking their clothes off! And that TOO makes for some

jack> interesting conversation! :-)

jack> Darrin, I hope you'll spend a little time exploring this more, but at a time maybe when you're in a meditative, rather than a horny mood...

jack> If you're horny, hey, take care of it!!! :-) THEN when you feel like you don't have quite that

Darrin> Well, I am still working on it. It's kind of hard not to be horny when meditating on something like this (I guess there's still a lot of teenager in me) ;-),

jack> ... well what I call "phallic urgency", it's a little easier to explore your erotic capabilities in a more relaxed way, and paradoxically, this kind of orgasm is a LOT about relaxation!

jack> (re: "teenager") Hey, me too! If you get turned on, you may want to just decide that you're gonna let yourself ejac when you feel the need, but

jack> meanwhile just work with being able to make the complete Key Sound at ever

jack> higher levels of arousal. Try to take it a little further each time.

jack> The other thing is... give yourself the pleasuring that leads to ejac, and THEN begin your Male Multiple Orgasm practice. Because THESE kinds of orgs you can have

jack> even AFTER you ejaculate!

Darrin> When I do practice, I can get something going on, really intense feeling that I focus on, I feel like something is about to happen, but that something is always ejaculation. When I use the key sound, the feelings at ejaculation are usually much more intense, though.

jack> Exactly! I was going to mention that. some consolation prize, eh? :-)

jack> So... this

jack> "really intense feeling" that you just mentioned,

jack> when you've got a R I F like that, are you able to express THAT feeling at THAT moment by

jack> making a complete Key Sound?

Drew> In my recent practices, I've ended with ejaculorgasm that wasn't as intense as some of the Male Multiple Orgasm feelings I experienced, ovr.

Darrin> Yes, AFIK. I can't figure out at what point I am 'straying from the path' and going towards ejaculation.

jack> My hunch is that there is some time in the process

Fred> I know what you mean, Darrin.ovr

Drew> Me too, ovr.

jack> where you abandon using the pattern of Key Sound (including the second part!) plus regular breaths, each time you feel a rush

jack> of erotic energy, EXHALE IT through the second part of the Key Sound. ovr

jack> comments?

Fred> As usual, Jack, I want to print and study what you've said.ovr

jack> Do you guys get what I'm saying about the importance of

jack> taking that building up erotic energy and expressing it through

Darrin> I can't seem to get rid of some of those rushes with the key sound. Like I said, something keeps building. The key sound lets me spread it around a bit (ie better ejaculations), but somewhere I can't quit dispell it as you say.

jack> the SECOND part of the Key Sound? By doing that the erotic energy somehow gets pushed

jack> back down into the valley of your body and tends to trigger the orgasmic waves, pulses, shudders, etc.

Fred> I'll just have to keep applying it, Jack.ovr

jack> What do you mean by not getting rid of the rushes? You mean you feel a rush after you use the Key Sound?

jack> Yeah Fred, remember to make the SECOND part of the Key Sound

jack> at those higher levels of arousal!

Fred> Right.or

Darrin> When I am masturbating and use the key sound, I definately feel a wave over my body. I just can't seem to direct it towards MMO, it seems to lead me towards ejaculation.

Fred> I think Darrin means that he gets so caught up

Fred> in "rushing" toward ejaculation, that everything else

Fred> goes by the wayside.

jack> Darrin?

Darrin> No, what I mean is that the feelings I get from making the key sound seem to lead towards an ejaculatory orgasm. I often feel like 'hey, this could be it', but it isn't.

jack> Are you talking about a single wave that happens just b4 ejaculating?

Darrin> Well, I get waves from almost every key sound, and the intensity of the whole thing builds. For a while, not just before ejaculation. Then, everything peaks, and I often wonder whether I will ejaculate or not, but I always do.

jack> I invite you to consider as a _working hypothesis_ that the waves are non-ejaculatory orgasms!

jack> That those waves may in fact be orgasms... it's now really a question of learning

jack> how to PACE the erotic stimulation! If you don't continue the stimulation at a pace necessary to

jack> maintain erection constantly, but maybe just a LITTLE bit less than that, yet still where

jack> you are feeling those waves... see about hanging out in THAT zone a little longer each time. Reduce the stim JUST A LITTLE and continue the Key Sound practice and enjoying the waves. You may notice

jack> that spontaneous sounds (what I call Echo Sounds) may start accompanying the waves and

jack> rushes of pleasure... So that the Key Sound really becomes obviously a trigger that can set another process in motion. So... will you try that

jack> experiment of reducing the stim just a LITTLE back of where you've been taking it, and

jack> hang out in those waves a little longer each time?

Drew> Jack, I've had tremendous success recently, stimulating the 'lower' penile area alone. It feels really great!

Darrin> Yes, I will.

jack> Hey, Great news Drew!!!

Drew> I'd like to make a comment about something you said earlier...

jack> Great Darrin, I really look fwd to hearing from you how that goes, and I sure appreciate your joining us tonite. Can you say approx where in Alberta, my partner is curious!

jack> yes Drew!

Darrin> Calgary. I will E-mail you my address later, re: guide vol. 3 as you mentioned earlier.

Drew> It relates to the importance of relaxing...

jack> yes! thanks Darrin, Drew, you have the Talking Stick!

jack> Ah yessssss!!!!!!!!

Drew> Alright!

Drew> I've noticed that with regular ejaculorgasm...

Drew> the erngy gets concentrated locally in the genital area,

Drew> and my whole body seems to tense, or 'contract'.

jack> Including the areas which put pressure on your prostate!

Drew> When practicing MMO, I've noticed that it's important to 'relax' into the sensations

Drew> that I'm experiencing, allowing the energy to 'expand'.

jack> Yes! Mike B did an elegant rap on that one too in the April 10 chat. It really is kind of

jack> paradoxical isn't it Drew? To relax into orgasm. Not really

jack> the way _I_ learned how to get "there"! (i.e. ejaculorgasm)...ovr

Drew> It seems the pleasure that I experience is directly related to my ability to 'let go'...

jack> That's a VERY IMPORTANT STATEMENT!

Darrin> I have a theory that Male Multiple Orgasm and FMO are very similar. A lot of women have to 'learn' how to do it.

jack> That's at the core of learning this process!

jack> Darrin I totally concur!!!

Fred> What is FMO, please?ovr

jack> My quest for this was inspired by the female experience!

Drew> to push rather than pull, to EXPAND rather than contract, ovr.

Darrin> ?f?emale ?m?ultiple ?o?rgasm

jack> Female Multis, Fred... copy on that sense of EXPANSION... Drew!!!

Fred> The F simply means female like M means Male. Right?ovr

jack> yep!

jack> Women who listen to the

jack> Audio Seminar frequently comment about how similar it seems to their

jack> experience, and they express excitement about men's learning this kind of pleasure, they feel it's opening whole new bandwidths of possible intimate communication!

jack> ovr

Darrin> Women were told they couldn't have orgasms. Then they found out they could have multiples. Guys have always thought they could have only one.

Drew> AMEN!!!! to that, ovr.

jack> Yep, has a familiar ring to it! ;-)

jack> Anything else on the agenda tonite? My stomach's growlin...

Darrin> All done.

Fred> I think we've had a good session, Jack.ovr

jack> Drew I hope you'll "expand" more on this topic next week!

Drew> Nothing that won't keep for another time

jack> Darrin I look fwd to hearing the results of your "field research". Thanks for joining us tonite!

Drew> RE:EXPAND, I'll do my best...

jack> thanks Drew!

jack> Thanks Fred!

Fred> Handshakes and hugs! You're all three great guys.ovr

Darrin> TTYAL

jack> Likewise, Utah Fred!

jack> K, Darrin...

Drew> You're welcome, it's been a pleasure. ovr.

jack> Drew, you seemed to have some great news tonite! We got onto

jack> other things... but I look fwd to hearing more detail next week!

Drew> I still owe you an in depth e-mail report...

jack> NO prob, when you get a chance..

jack> ACTION huggin Drew

Drew> yet part of my taking care of mice elf, is to spend less time in front of my MAC!

Drew> ACTION Returning HUG!

jack> copy!!! spend the time practicing instead!

Drew> Cool idea!

jack> Have a great week, Drew. My warmest friendship to you!

Drew> OK Jack, go take care of your stomach!

jack> Will do! c.u.!!!

Drew> Until next time, take care, ovr.

jack> bye!

jack> ACTION hangin sign on the door, "Back at 10:00 Greenwich Mean Time Thursday."