• This chat is a dramatic discussion between Fred (Utah, age 66), Drew (Michigan, age ~42), and Jack (Oregon, logging in from San Francisco Bay Area) who discuss the question: "Other than actual ejaculation, how do you know you are experiencing an orgasm?" That is, what are the physical characteristics? What's happening to your breathing, body movement, etc.?
• These criteria, based on the orgasms we're used to experiencing are then used to evaluate the kinds of experiences one may have during Male Multiple Orgasm practice. And...Check out the "paradigm shift"... the AHA!!! the guys experience as a result of the discussion!

jack> Hi Drew!

Drew> Hi Jack!!!

Drew> Hi Fred!

jack> Good to hear from you again! I'm "calling" from San Francisco Bay Area tonite!

jack> Hi Fred! Welcome!!!

Fred> Drew, I've thought about you and wondered how things

Fred> are going with you.

Fred> Hi, Jack!

Drew> I've just returned from that area myself!

jack> :-)

Drew> Thanks for asking Fred....

Drew> I've been in CA for the last month...

Drew> not much opportunity to 'pratice'

Drew> I've had a couple of good sessions in the last two days though,

Drew> I believe I've been right at the gate, knockin' on the door

Drew> This prompts me to ask a question...

Drew> How would I really know when I've experienced MMO?

Drew> ovr

jack> That's an excellent question Drew! Fred, what are your thoughts on the subject?

Fred> In the past, Jack, you have said that you think I have crossed

Fred> the threshhold -- yet I, too, have the same question as Drew.

Fred> Frankly, the last three times I have practiced, I have become

Fred> so excited that I have ejaculated -- and that was not what I

Fred> was out for.ovr

Drew> That's happened with me too Fred...

jack> There seem to be at least two threads here: first, to discuss how we know we've experienced orgasm in the way we're used to? (i.e. the experiencing of orgasm that we ARE familiar with... aside from ejaculation, how do we know we've experienced orgasm when we do? The second thread would then be to invite Fred to describe

jack> this latest experience and see if we can identify that zone

jack> where the ejaculation process took over... over

Fred> I suppose you are asking me, Jack. Right?

jack> Did you guys get all of the first sentence?

Fred> I believe I did.

Drew> YEP!

jack> OK... thanks... not necessarily

jack> Fred... just offering those questions as a starting point, and I think it

jack> might be helpful to start with all of us discussing how we know're having

jack> an orgasm when we DO experience it with ejaculation.? How do we know in addition to the process

jack> of ejaculation itself?

Fred> That's the question.

jack> The question I'm asking first Fred is, when you experience orgasm that INCLUDES

jack> ejaculation, how do you know it's an orgasm, how do you tell, other than the presence of ejaculate?

Fred> My experience is that I reach the pulsing pleasure, I'm massaging myself and my perineum

Fred> my body is jerking around and I get to masturbating and, before you know it, I have ejaculated. There is no doubt about that.

jack> You sed your body is jerking around... does that feel automatic or is it something you consciously do?

Fred> I tried to divert the urge to ejaculate into the key sound, but did not succeed.ovr

Fred> The jerkin is automatic.ovr

jack> OK, thanks! Would you guys agree that orgasm AS YOU ALREADY KNOW IT usually seems to include some kind of automatic body movements?

Fred> Very few. It's all directed by myself.ovr

jack> What was the jerking around you described as automatic?

Drew> I'm not sure that it's totally automatic...

Fred> It can be my arms, but is mainly my hips and groin area that

Fred> jerk up and down as if copulating from the lower position.ovr,

jack> automatically?

Fred> Yes.ovr

Drew> I guess there are certain automatic responses... past the point of no return.

jack> ... which is another point to focus on and further define: The point of no return"... How about we put that in the queue after the first two?

Fred> Fine.ovr

Drew> Sounds good!

jack> Ok, so what we've got so far

jack> is that Fred recognizes some body movements that feel automatic, and Drew,

jack> you also mentioned a sense of automatic movements to SOME degree, moreso once

jack> you pass the so-called "point of no return" whatever THAT is for each of us! Is that about right?

Drew> For me, it's more like an extreme tension in certain parts of my body.... sometimes my whole body. ovr.

jack> What about at the very moment you "come"? How do you know you're coming?

Fred> You know that because by that time you know you can't stop it.ovr

jack> But stop WHAT? What is your body doing at that exact moment when... BING!!! What are your eyes doing

Fred> When you know you can't stop the ejaculate from eploding out.ovr

Fred> I don't know what my eyes are doing.ovr

jack> what is your breathing doing? Your muscles (like Drew mentioed), copy Fred, on

Drew> For me, there's extreme pleasure in the penis, my breathing shortens (maybe even stops), and I think my abdomen contracts.

Fred> I do not feel especially rigid -- I think.ovr

jack> the ejacualtion, AND WHAT ELSE?

jack> OK Drew! Copy!! Any of those resonate for you, Fred?

Fred> Are you suggesting that we do something with our breath?ovr

jack> Just asking what you already have experienced BEFORE

Fred> I'm not sure about my abdomen contracting. Drew is more

Fred> conscious than I am.ovr

jack> YOU STARTED WORKING with MMO

jack> No Prob Fred, we're all learning from each other here!

Drew> I think it's a good question tjo ask ourselves, so that we can notice more of our experience...

Fred> Right on.ovr

jack> Drew, would you care to take the Talking Stick and saymore about those

jack> characteristics?

Drew> OK

jack> Thanks brother!

Drew> It's tough because I don't think I pay much conscious attention to this

jack> But when you think back and kinda get into your body at that moment, what's going on?

Drew> For me, 'excitement' or 'energy' builds in my genital area...

jack> and at the moment of orgasM/

Drew> and some very powerful muscles contract

Drew> and at elaculation, the muscular tension releases.

jack> So there's tension buildup, and then at some point you feel a release of this tension, is that right?

Drew> Yes.

Drew> The other thing I would like to mention..

jack> During the buildup phase, I understand you to say that you are definitely feeling pleasure, but at the MOMENT of orgasm, that pleasure especially in your penis, becomes extreme. Is that correct?

jack> Yes, plsease continue!

Drew> is that my attention is on my genital area, so a question about the rest of my body is difficult to answer

jack> Ok Drew, thanks! What do you think about experimenting with expanding your body

Drew> which also leads me to ask about 'whole body orgasm'

jack> awareness at the moment of

jack> EJACULorgasm?

Drew> OK, what should I do?

jack> One approach may be to set aside trying to have MMO's for a session or two and just pleasure yourself the way you're USED to doing, on thru ejaculation... but as you

jack> do so, just check in with yourself every so often "along the way" to ejaculorgasm

jack> and tune in to various areas of your body and body movements, breathing, etc. and notice what's going on... ovr

Drew> OK, I'll do that.ovr

jack> I look fwd to hearing what you discover! Meanwhile, I think

jack> we've identified several characteristics that we may all recognize to SOME

jack> degree as happening AT the moment of orgasm. To wit:

jack> SOME degree of automatic body movements and muscular contractions, which at the moment of

jack> orgasm seem to be moreso (Fred I'm not sure this checks with your experience, does it?

jack> i.e. more automatic at the moment of orgasm?

Fred> I don't know. One small observation: an ejulorgasm is not

Fred> singular. It consists of several different spurts. But so what

Fred> I feel that if I could achieve a lasting Male Multiple Orgasm without ejaculation

Fred> that I would feel super masculine, male, in charge.ovr

Fred> And I would like to add that I think I would be able to do it

Fred> because I could master giving _into_ the MMO.ovr

jack> Why do you think that would make a difference? Glad to hear the addendum, too! Hmm, interesting phrase: "master giving in..." seems like

jack> a core, and rather divine paradox!

jack> ovr

Fred> It does seem a paradox, but that would be my meaning of _control_.

jack> Are you saying you want to gain a sense of control that you dont feel you have now?

Fred> To identify with it, go with it, BE it.ovr

Fred> I am saying that I do not have the control I want now. Yes.ovr

Fred> It is in a mystical sense.ovr

jack> Grok! I was about to say that the "control" I hear you talking about seemed to be about your whole

jack> experience of sexuality and how you believe learning Male Multiple Orgasm can enrich that... AND

jack> paradoxically, the path to that seems to be as you say, learning how to surrender into the Male Multiple Orgasm process... Do I understand you correctly?

Fred> I believe you do.ovr

jack> Thanks! OK, ... so regarding identifying the components of orgasm, first there seems

jack> to be a concensus that there's room for expanind our whole body awareness near and AT the moment of orgasm. And so far we seem to

jack> have i.d.'d certain themes at least: automatic movements, perhaps more intensely automatic at the moment(s) of orgasm with ejaculation. These

jack> movements may include contraction of the abdominal muscles at the moment of orgasm,

jack> there may be changes in breathing near and at orgasm... by the way Drew,

jack> you mentioned shorter breaths... I assume that's as you were approaching orgasm? Did THAT pattern then change at THE MOMENT of orgasm?

Drew> Not sure at the moment

jack> OK, so maybe that could be one of those areas to tune into in your practice?

Drew> I will

jack> OK... let's see, what other elements have we i.d.'d so far? Extreme pleasure in the penis... again I'd be interested in any CHANGES in the quality of that AT the moment of orgasm... OK... what ELSE? What about your eyes?

jack> Are they open or shut? What about at the VERY MOMENT of orgasm? STILL open?

Fred> I believe they're closed tightly.ovr

Drew> I'm clueless on this one right now...

Fred> Today I remember just being conscious of, as it were, a bright

Fred> explosion (visual) at the time of ejaculation.ovr

jack> What about your sense of consciousness? Is it continuous all the way THRU orgasm, or is there ever a sense of losing the thread for a moment or more?

jack> OK Fred, thanks! So you're aware of sometimes there being

jack> a powerful VISUAL experience (is this still with your eyes closed?)

Fred> Yes. At the peak moment I am extremely conscious of super pleasure.ovr

jack> The yes being in response to my ? about eyes closed when the visuals occur?
&127; Fred> Yes.ovr

Fred> You can have lots of fantasies along the way, but I believe that

Fred> once the moment comes, your experience may be visual,

Fred> but it's not particular -- that is of any particular person or body.ovr

jack> Thanks! And copy on the super pleasure! So that seems to verify another trait: that sense of extreme pleasure in the orgasmic moments...

jack> Drew how about you? Ever aware of any visuals at the moment of orgasm as you know it?

Drew> None, other than self constructed fantasies.

jack> OK... thanks. For me, some of the orgasm I experience with ejaculation are like what you've described, Fred...

jack> Do you feel (either of you) any sense of energy moving in your body at that time?

Fred> No, I do not.ovr

Drew> I don't think so either.

jack> OK... thanks. How about the word "rush" does that have any resonance?

jack> as in rush of pleasure?

Fred> I get in a "rush" when I get going too hot and fast.ovr

jack> and at the orgasmic moment what about the word rush?

Fred> "Rush" isn't as apt as "explosion."ovr

jack> Copy!!!!

Drew> I'm with you Fred.

jack> Drew?

jack> Copy, Drew!

jack> So what have we gleaned tonite?

jack> so far?

Fred> To study how we feel when we ejaculation so we can avoid it!ovr

Fred> Should have been ejaculate.ovr

Drew> to become aware of a 'choice point'

Fred> Well put, Drew. I'll keep that in mind.ovr

Drew> Yet Jack, all along you've said Male Multiple Orgasm is not about holding back...

jack> That's right, it's about REDIRECTING THE ENERGY.

Fred> Just keep on trying is the lesson, I guess.ovr

Drew> Is the sound the only way? (remember the thin walls)

jack> While continuing to expand your awareness of what's actually going on (re: keep on trying)

jack> Sound is the only way I know to get all of the experience that I've been having. But it's different for different folk. Mike B from

jack> San Diego reports very powerful results by VISUALIZING that he's making the

jack> Key Sound. I haven't asked him about this for him, but my hunch is that if

jack> you're using that method, VISUALIZE or "pretend" you're making the Key Sound,

jack> but DO actually make the breeath it would require to make that sound. It's

jack> a VERY PARTICULAR kind of sound because of what your language-making

jack> musculature must do to make it with that strange liaison right in the middle between the first part and the second part of that sound! Now that Key Sound as I demonstrate in the audio seminars (actually made or visualized)

jack> is the TRIGGER sound (AND THE MUSCLE MOVEMENTS REQUIRED TO CORRECTLY MAKE IT)

jack> So the idea is as you get more turned on and your breathing starts getting shorter or whatever, and that energy starts building up, you use the

jack> Key Sound Trigger Sound, etc to convert that building up energy into

jack> that Key Sound and breath. If you gotta make the sound part softly or not at all then you'll

jack> need to use more breath, more air, because the ENERGY HAS TO HAVE SOMEHWERE TO GO. If you don't give it the sound channel and you cant open the breath channel enough, then that energy will probably find its way

jack> out your penis in the form of ejaculation! So if you gotta "hold back" on

jack> sound, then you gotta surrender more to expelling a LOT of air, BUT

jack> IN THE SPECIFIC WAY that gets the lower belly to move in the way it does

jack> when you make the Key Sound in such a way that afterwards you feel a tingle, or

jack> SOMEthing that ells you "yeah! that's more like it!" ovr

Drew> Where specifically do you feel the tingle?

jack> Good question! Please report back with data! :-)

jack> OK?

Drew> OK, I guess.

jack> ?

Fred> Drew wants you to tell him, Jack, where to expect the tingle.ovr

Drew> No clues?

jack> And I'm saying to Drew that the real information is in learning how to ask exactly these kinds of questions of yourself during your practice. Where am I feeling anything different? Is it pleasurable or not?

jack> Is it a furrball? (i.e. an unfinished emotional issue or an unhealed wound), or does it feel good? Where?

Drew> I believe I do that up to a point, and I haven't even mentioned furrballs yet!

jack> Yes, you DO do that, Drew! and that's the path with power! I want to teach

jack> you how to use your own body, your own genetic information, to teach you what this means to YOU... I know you guys have been

jack> at this a while and I really laud your persistence. It took me 9 months to learn.

jack> It's clear that becoming aware of what's already happening to you as you reach orgasm could be useful. We need that info in order

jack> watch for similarities when we ARE doing the Male Multiple Orgasm practice. So, I'd

jack> say practice more in the following way. Devote some practice time to self-pleasuring in the way you've done b4 learning about MMO. Use these sessions, first as a bbreak from the push push to "get" Male Multiple Orgasm which is a trap we can all slip into from time to time...

jack> Also use them to expand your understanding and AWARENESS of what actually is happening

jack> IN YOU when you experience orgasm the way you're used to.

jack> Learn all you can about what makes an orgasm an ORGASM, for YOU. The

jack> pleasure, the automatic qualities, loss of consciousness (or not). Powerful

jack> internal visuals at times, breathing changes (what are they? changes in what way? etc.

jack> WHAT IS YOUR BELLY DOING when you come? And so on.

jack> With THIS information that you've learned about what orgasm is FOR YOU, THEN do some Male Multiple Orgasm practice sessions, and as you increase the energy,

jack> use the Key Sound, AND THEN DURING REGULAR BREATHS tune in to what's going on

jack> in your body

jack> I OFTEN fairly quickly get some kind of Echo pulse of pleasure in seeming response to

jack> my using the Key Sound. As I continue to use the Key Sound on every 4th or 5th breath (or even less often, as long as I'm not increasing stimulation)

jack> I keep tuning in to various areas in my body: my groin, my chest, my extremities, etc

jack> "listening", "watching" for those "Echoes"... those tingles (wherever they may appear, Drew!:-)

Drew> COPY :-)

jack> tingles, waves of pleasure, rushes of feeling, flowing of energy, whatever metaphors come to mind

jack> to describe that when I use the Key Sound as I demonstrate in both audio seminars (regular breaths) PLEASURE WAVE (or whatever)...

jack> Does that make sense? The Key Sound is like a call to my erotic body memory

jack> to wake up! Remember! So I send the call, then I listen for the response int erms of the feelings that happen during the regular breaths after I've done a Key Sound. As I continue

jack> my practice in this way, AS LONG AS I STILL FEEL MY KEY SOUNDS

jack> ARE "RINGING TRUE", I can gradually increase

jack> the stimulation. during the regular breaths, the "Echoes" or responses from my body tend to get stronger and stronger and take on more

jack> and more characteristics of what I'm

jack> used to associating with orgasm, those elements we discussed this evening...

Fred> I believe that's as succinctly as you've ever put it, Jack.ovr

jack> I find my body wanting to make more and more automatic movements, undulations, etc. I feel pleasure pass thru me, like a wave, or a rush... or sometimes

jack> I'll feel like I'm hooked up to an electrical current and I start tingling, shaking, vibrating, bouncing even, the waves of

jack> pleasure get more and more intense to where I feel I cant stand it...

jack> at this point (Ta DA! Choice Point!) I can "go for" ejaculation,

jack> which I sometimes do, 'cause it's fun too! and sometimes instead I make

jack> every effort to get in another Key Sound and use it to send all of the "turned on" energy

jack> down below my genitals... at that point the Echoes become so intense that

jack> along with the extreme pleasure that seems to flow thru me in waves, I may repeatedly experience momentary losss of consciousness, a sense of going OUT! My eyes may automatically (that word again) cross

jack> I may become aware of slightly grinding my front teeth the pleasure is so intense,

jack> and I may or may not have an erect penis at this point.

jack> Thank you both for your comments during my rap. (blush)... O.V.E.R.

Fred> You've put to rest, Jack, my suspicions that maybe the word

Fred> "orgasm" was oversell when it comes to MMO.ovr

Drew> Thank you Jack, the 'rap' was most informative.

jack> wHAT CAUSED THE SHIFT, fRED?

jack> (scuse weird caps)

Fred> The description of an experience so intense.ovr

jack> More intense than?

Fred> It sounded that it is as intensely pleasurable as

Fred> ejaculation if not more so.ovr

jack> Eventually... WAY MORE SO!!! ANNNNDDDD: orgasms WITH ejacualtion become more intensely pleasurable also!!!

jack> Drew, has this rant been helpful to you?

Fred> I believe I have already experienced that.ovr

Drew> I've noticed that already.

jack> Aha!!! FRed!!! Aha!!! Drew!!!

jack> NOW what?

jack> :-)

Fred> Two small matters that we can discuss another time

Fred> as it is now late:

Fred> I told you, Jack, that I would report back after I had

Fred> practiced with the mirror and writing.

Fred> 2) I want to read the bookd, Erotic Mind, I believe,

jack> yes?

Fred> that you have praised so highly. Where can I get it?

Fred> Also, as per another conversations with you,

Fred> it should be available through you. YOU have advertised it.

jack> I believe it is published by Harper. A decent bookstore would either have it or could order it for you.

jack> I'm gonna speak with Jack morin about offering it here...

Fred> Thanks, I'll try to find it.

Fred> And now, Jack and Drew, I think it's time to call it a night.ovr

jack> Fred, would you pls put that mirror report at the top of the agenda for next week?

Fred> Certainly. And I'll try it some more.ovr

Drew> Time flies when you're having fun (learning)

Fred> Your questions and comments have been first rate, Drew --

Fred> that is, very instructive for me.ovr

jack> Great! Fred... Indeed it does, Drew! When you guys sed you've experienced that

Drew> Thanks Fred, the feeling is mutual.

jack> already, were you talking about more pleasurable ejaculorgasms or ?

Fred> No, absolutely not. I have experienced terrific pleasure

jack> (sorry for the interrupt)

Fred> without erection and without ejaculation.ovr

jack> D?

Drew> more pleasure

Drew> I seem to take more time with it...

jack> OK! Do you guys perceive your own experience a

jack> litlle differently than you did at the beginning of our chat this PM?

Drew> Yes, and I have a few ides on things to keep track of

Fred> I also!ovr

Fred> I look forward to being able to print tonight's chat.ovr

jack> Well, you guys are terrific, and there are a lot of guys out there who are gonna

jack> benefit from this one!

Fred> I believ it, Jack.ovr

Drew> I hope so...

Fred> Handshakes, hugs and the best to both of you!ovr

jack> Yes Fred, I'll get it on the site asap. Drew, count on it!

jack> And to you Fred, you're the greatest!@\

Fred> Our friendship is only beginning.ovr

jack> Good luck Drew, I'm sorry you've got that sound constraint at this time in your living situation but it

jack> is yet another oppty to learn. There's probably at least one or maybe even TWO other guys out there

jack> who are in a similar situation! :-) Thanks Fred!!!

Fred> I hope your personal situation is going better, Drew.ovr

Drew> I believe I will find a way if I persevere.

Fred> I'm sure you will. We'll keep in touch, I hope.ovr

jack> Right on Drew!

Drew> I'm sure we will...

jack> I hope to see you guys again next week. It'll have to be only an hour one

jack> since I'm doing a presentation at Good Vibrations in San Francisco at 8pm...

Drew> So, is it time for bed yet???????

jack> ABSOLUTELY, EH FRED?

Fred> Whatever. Your presentations are also very important.ovr

Fred> YES! Good night!

jack> Copy... and thanks. Let's bail... c.u. next wk at 6

jack> take care, drew!

Drew> Ok Jack, I'm planning to send you some e-mail...

Drew> about all kinds of stuff... when I can find the time to compose it...

jack> Thanks I'll watch for it and get back to you! Thanks for your input, as always... you really help bring things in to focus.

Drew> and I'm looking forward to ordering the revised Audio Seminar

jack> Send me your snail address, this copy's on me!

Drew> Oh WOW! What a generous gesture....

Drew> Thank you very much...

jack> My humble way of saying thanks for all YOU have brought

jack> to this discussion. You are VERY welcome!
&127; jack> hug ok?

Drew> ACTION Pinkish hue appearing on face

Drew> Hug is fine!!

jack> You're a champ!

jack> ACTION huggin Drew...

Drew> ACTION Hugging Jack in return

jack> Thanks, that felt great! See you next time!

Drew> Yes, I'm looking forward to it already

Drew> see you then

jack> OK brother, see you next time!

jack> ACTION heaving a biiiig sigh, feelin really full...

jack> ACTION turning off the lites, hangin a sign on the door that says, "Back next Wednesday at 6 pm Pacific Daylight (Oregon USA) time."