• This week Jack was joined by Fred from Utah, and Drew from Michigan. Jack begins the discussion by explaining how to convert Greenwich Mean Time or "World Time" into local time, in order to tell when the next chat will be.
• Jack then attempts to give an operational definition of the word "grok".
• The group goes on to discuss what it may mean if you find you're not doing the practice any more. It seems that viewing this phenomenon as part of the "cycles" one will go through in the practice can be very helpful and move one beyond the "Pass/Fail" way of evaluating one's practice.
• Drew and Fred engage in a wonderful discussion comparing their practice. Drew tends to average an hour or more per session, whereas Fred's practice is usually more brief.
• They go on to discuss other similarities and differences in their experience.
• Both agree that they have felt at times that they are "standing right in front of the Gate to MMO."
• Jack reminds them that THIS is the most important time to remember to use the Key Sound. It is in effect the "Open Sesame!" to multiples!
• The group then does some brainstorming to help Drew deal with the fact that his apartment has very thin walls and he doesn't feel comfortable making the Key Sound. Various suggestions are offered, including using the methods of _visualizing_ the Key Sound, as suggested by Mike from San Diego in previous sessions.
• Next the group discusses the meaning of "grounding" the energy that gets awakened through this practice.
• Distinctions are made between "forced grounding" and "grounding" the energy in ways that may be more productive. Importance of remembering to ground the energy is emphasized.
• These concepts are related to how to deal with feeling really charged up after a session.
• Jack and Fred discuss how alcohol might be used (for better or ill) as a method of "forced grounding" and Jack re-iterates how this may often feel like an "emotional breaker" or "emotional fuse" blowing.
• Jack suggests exploring some ways of grounding as alternatives to using alcohol for this purpose.
• Fred offers a terrific suggestion about reviewing the concepts in the Audio Seminar™ while doing his daily walk.
• After Drew and Fred logged off, Jack went on to add commentary about other issues touched on during the evening, among them:What it means if you're focusing on "not ejaculating" or are feeling that it's "tough to delay" during your practice
• How the energy may be released through breath when loud sounds are not an option
• Jack then offers some ideas to Fred and Drew (and you!) how to expand their options to make their practice more flexible...
• and Jack also gives an important tip on how to quickly find chat topics on the chat archives index page™ .

jack> Hi Fred!
Fred> Hi, Jack. Sorry I'm late.
jack> no prob!
jack> How are you this evening?
Fred> I was here earlier, but no one was there. Fine.
jack> Sorry I missed you the first time. I had the channel open from noon until 1:30 pm today, as part of my new chat schedule,
jack> then I took a break, got back right about 6...
Fred> I think I came on an hour too early.
jack> Yeah! This might be a good
jack> oppty to talk a little about "World Time" or Greenwich Mean Time (GMT)...
jack> In this modern age of global real time communication,
Fred> I'm listening.
jack> it's a good idea to know how to translate World Time or GMT into your local time. This is
jack> what amateur radio operators, shortwave listeners, now Internet users, and a WHOLE
jack> bunch of other folk do in order to communicate thru the Global Brain. For example,
jack> I found out that here in Oregon, USA when we're on Daylight Savings Time, I have to SUBTRACT _seven_ hours from whatever World Time is to figure out my local time.
jack> Conversely,
jack> If I need to translate my local time INTO World Time, I must (during Daylight Savings Time) ADD 7 hours. When we go off of Daylight S.T., the 7 becomes an 8.
jack> Are you on Mtn Time? Is it Daylight Savings Time also?
Fred> Yes.
jack> So, it's about 7:15pm where you are in Utah?
Fred> Exactly.
jack> OK, since you are one hour CLOSER to Greenwich England than I am, for you during Daylight
jack> Savings Time, the magic number is 6. When you "Fall Back" to regular time in the Fall, your magic number becomes 7. grok?
Fred> I don't know what "grok" means, but I'll remember it.
jack> The direct reference for "grok" is Robert Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land. It's worth
jack> a read to get the full contextual meaning, but briefly,
jack> grok means something like you REALLY get it... viscerally... like a lot of the Male Multiple Orgasm we've been learning! Grok?
Fred> Viscerally. Yes.
jack> All right!!! Fred, I'm thinking of moving the early evening (here) chat time from 6pm to 7pm. (8pm your time) Would that work for you? I'm getting
jack> mail from a number of people who say it'd be a better time for them...
Fred> It would be fine for me.
Fred> Anything to attract others!
jack> Great!!! Well, I've sent an email to everybody on the list saying I'd
jack> be here til 7:30 tonite... that I'd keep the channel open. so, what's
jack> your pleasure, would you like to go ahead and discuss some things, or check back a little
jack> later? I'm gonna be here regardless, with the "doors open to the discussion room" in any case.
Fred> Jack, I don't have anything to talk about. My hope is to hear somebody who'll inspire me to get back on the track.
jack> Feeling discouraged?
Fred> I've fallen by the wayside -- haven't practised.
jack> Well, may I suggest another way of considering what's happening?
Fred> By all means.
jack> I think it's REALLY important in this process to recognize the conditioning many of us get in this culture, that everything we do or try to do is
jack> "graded" (by?) on a Win/Lose or Pass/Fail basis. I'd like to toss into
jack> the discussion an alternative model. An old one really, the idea that all life flows in cycles... does that suggest any alternative ways of viewing what's happening (or "not" happening) vis a vis MMO/
jack> ?
Fred> I don't know. I have never thought of my life in terms of cycles.
jack> yet?
jack> :-)
Fred> I'm happy to learn anything you suggest. It's always worthwhile.
jack> I'm glad you feel that way! Thanks! BTW, here comes Drew!
Fred> Very good!
jack> gimme just a sec to help him in the door...
jack> Good evening Drew!
Drew> did I make it?
jack> You did!!!
Fred> It's great to hear from you again, Drew.
jack> Did you have probs?
Drew> Hi Guys!!!
Drew> Yeah, it was user error!
jack> you mean the way you were entering a cmd or something?
Drew> I couldn't see the bottom of the scrolling window, along with your instructions
Drew> I've fixed it now though
jack> Did it seem to be a problem at our end, or did you need to resize a window or what?
Drew> no, not at all. It was all at my end.
Drew> I resized a window, thats all.
jack> OK, just wanna make sure we're technically in synch at this end! Glad you made it!
jack> OK! That's a good tip!!! BTW, did you copy Fred's greeting right when you came in?
Drew> Me too!! What's the topic tonight?
Drew> Yeah! Thanks Fred, how ya doin'
Fred> I'm ok, but am interested in how you're doing, Drew.
Drew> Well, I'm doin' OK. Life is rather stressful at the moment, I'm coping well though.
Fred> I remember that's what you said before.
Drew> It's not leaving much time to practice Male Multiple Orgasm though.
Fred> I've fallen off on my practice terribly
Fred> was hoping you'd inspire me to get back on.
Drew> Actually, I've made a conscious decision not to practice at the moment.
Fred> I'll have to be inspired by Jack then.
jack> ACTION groaning under the weight on my shoulders :-)
Drew> I just wouldn't feel right, more like another chore...
Fred> I see what you mean.
Drew> I've decided not to practice, unless I can alot at least a few hours to be with myself.
Fred> I've never given it that much time!
Fred> I can begin to get where I want to go quite fast now.
Drew> For me, it just seems to take that amount of time at present
Fred> It's just that I've got to keep in mind that I'm not going toward ejaculation!
Drew> If I have a limited amount of time, there seems to be a stronger urge to ejaculate.
Fred> Jack did a lot to get me over my disgust at ejaculation.
Drew> For me it's a very pleasant experience, it's kinda tough to delay it, even when you've been told there's something even better beyond it.
Fred> I enjoy the feelings I now get, even if they are not climax.
Drew> That's true for me too...
Drew> I just cannot seem to go through the 'gate', I'm pretty sure I've stood before it.
Fred> I feel exactly the same.
jack> So what is the Male Multiple Orgasm equivalent of "Open Sesame!"
jack> the Key Sound as I demonstrate in the audio seminar™ .
Drew> DOUGH!!!!
jack> ACTION crackin up...
Drew> Actually, I'm having trouble with the sound part...
Drew> I live in an apartment with real thin walls.
Drew> so I'm quite self-conscious about making the 'roar'
jack> how does being in that place affect your other sexual experience ?
Drew> What other sexual experience????????
jack> any...
jack> even solo...
Drew> Well, since I don't have a partner at present they are solo...
Drew> NOone Male Multiple Orgasm is not a problem for me
jack> Are you saying that because of the thin walls there, you haven't felt ok to be sexual there at all?
Fred> It's that old thing about "noise," Jack.
Drew> NO, I'm saying I can be sexual in silence.
jack> kind of "resigned to..." being sexual in silence?
jack> or is it ok with you?
Drew> I suppose so.
Drew> It's not really OK
jack> to?
jack> or re:?
Drew> To really express intense pleasure, I presume that would get loud.
jack> Not absolutely necessary, maybe, but it's been my experience that being able to be
jack> in a place that feels safe enough to allow the sound greatly intensifies the experience, and
jack> the degree of "satisfaction" or "nurturance" and "healing" or "soothing" that seems
jack> to result. I'm _very_ sorry to hear that you're living in a place that doesn't feel safe enough
jack> to be able to open that way. I've got a feeling you're not alone at all in facing that
jack> kind of predicament. There are a few structural things you might be able to
jack> do with the place, but I can also understand that all of the padding in the world might
jack> not necessarily help - in _that_ particular place, because of... other vibes, etc. What's your sense of that?
Drew> I agree, it's certainly not an optimal environment to pratice.
Drew> at the same time , it's where I live right now
Drew> so I suppose I'll have to work with it.
jack> yeah, I hear that! I'm into brainstorming with you to figure out how to make it better, maybe a little safer feeling...
Drew> I'm all ears.
jack> To begin, I want to acknowledge
jack> a couple of things Fred said, about "noise" vs. "sound" Drew, did you
jack> happen to take a look at the discussion Fred and I had about that in the transcripts?
Drew> I may have, I don't recall right now though.
jack> Wasn't that last week Fred?
Fred> Yes.
jack> When you get a chance, and I hear you when you say you're feelin maxed right now,
jack> I hope you'll be able to give it a look. Meanwhile, your situation is a real good example of how a lot of
jack> folks in our culture are restricted from fully feeling erotic experience because of
jack> the kinds of living situations they are in. And that in our culture there seems to be a
jack> MAJOR taboo about erotic sound. I can also say that if I were next door to you, I wouldn't
jack> necessarily feel comfortable about it either... but... like you say, it's where you ARE, for today... have you ever heard of egg crate foam?
Drew> Point taken! Re: egg crate foam, yes I have.
jack> That may help! It can cost some $ though... but it may not be necessary to do the whole apt in it! In fact it _could_ be a fairly small (read "cozy"?) space! If you were
jack> to combine that with some _safe_ covering directly over your mouth BUT IN SUCH
jack> A WAY THAT BREATHING IS NOT RESTRICTED... you might feel ok about allowing a bit
jack> more sound to happen. You might also give R.D.'s Interview at the end of the Audio Seminar
jack> another listen, for the story of how HE dealt with that... living with a roommate (not a sexual partner) etc.
jack> Another thot
jack> occurs to me as well, that you might consider in combo with some form of the preceeding:
jack> that is to start looking for a place or places you can retreat to from time to time, as you are able (financially and otherwise)
jack> to be able to open up a little more to the sound a little more... maybe camping on some
jack> land you know is private and remote, or housesitting for a friend who has a better
&127; jack> situation, etc. Any ideas about this Fred?
Fred> I'm sorry that I don't have anything to suggest, but I sympathize,
Drew> good suggestions, thanks Jack.
jack> I hope you'll keep us posted on how it goes with
Drew> I sure will.
jack> checking out a number of options that are within your means.
jack> copy!
jack> :-)
jack> Drew, I wish you the very best on that quest, and I hope
jack> that you'll experiment with making your situation different somehow, if even
jack> just for a few hours, or a day, or a weekend... whatever's feasible.
jack> May I recap some of the stuff we've been talking about?
Fred> Please do.
jack> D?
Drew> yep!
jack> Thanks to both of you! Whew, first of all, there is a RICH opportunity to explore a number of issues in this tonite. First, a practical item that Fred and I were
jack> discussing. I've been getting a lot of mail asking for a _little_ later time for the chat. I'd discussed with Fred,
jack> and had sent an email out to The List that I was thinking of starting an hour later for
jack> this chat, but then just as you logged on Drew, I remembered that you're more of an
jack> early person... so it just occurred to me that maybe what I oughtta do is just say I'll
jack> open the channel at 6pm my time and leave it open til at least 7:30 if nobody shows. Of course, I'm into going well beyond that time
jack> when people ARE able to make it in! I'll chat til I drop!!! BTW, for our friends out in the
jack> PacRim and any other interested souls, I'll be REopening this channel at 11pm my time tonite! I real eyes neither of you guys might be
jack> into THAT! But I'm trying to hit all the major time zones. So, Drew, what do you think
jack> about the 6pm vs 7pm thing? Would you rather I go ahead and retain the start time of
jack> 6 and just extend the hours?
jack> Still there D?
Drew> yep
jack> Do you prefer a 6pm PDT start time... do you think I should keep that start time, just keep the doors open longer/
jack> ?
Drew> yep, with the three hour time diff
Drew> it's already quite late here
jack> Copy! thot so! Ok, brotherman, you got it! Interestingly, some of the email was from easterners! Just different circadian rhythms... I'm kind of an owl myself!
jack> OK it's official! I'll keep the start time at 6pm PDT for my buddies like Drew :-), and
jack> stick around longer for the rest of the gang... Now if I may, for a little bit, I'd like to
Drew> I should be getting ready for bed, I'm not a morning person, and it's a real struggle for me to get up some days.
jack> I understand! If it's ok with Fred, after we say g'nite to ya, I'll go
jack> ahead and comment on some of the stuff that's come up tonite and you can check the transcript, ok Drew?
Drew> sure.
jack> K Fred?
Fred> Will there be transcripts on the net of the late night chats?
jack> You betcha! Once people start showin up for them. Transcripts from all THREE chats will go up! i.e from the noon PDT, 6pm PDT, and 11pm PDT chats!!!
Fred> Great -- but that's a lot of work for you.
jack> I'm trying to get us all together, wherever on the plan-it we might be.
jack> Yes it IS a lot of work... but til further notice anyway, I'm into it! I'm really excited
Fred> I understand how it's hard to get to bed, Drew. If you have to go, for whatever it's worth, I'm with you.
jack> about all of the sharing that's ALREADY been happening here since last November.
Fred> I meant I understand how hard it is to get up in the morning!
jack> Drew pls hang around another minute. I gotta quit the channel and come right back to clear the buffer, else I can't read what you say, and I wanna say g'nite properly!
jack> I'm back...
jack> who has the Talkin Stick?
Drew> Before I go Jack, one quick question (there may not be a quick answer)
jack> yes!
jack> ACTION now seeing Talkin Stick in Drew's hand...
Drew> are you familiar with the term 'grounding' with regard to the human energy field?
jack> yes, altho I'm sure it may have many nuances of meaning depending on who's using it... but... yes I believe
jack> I'm familiar with it... also in terms
jack> of nature-based spiritual traditions, etc. the concept is paired with "raising the power" part of a cyclical model
jack> ACTION nodding and smiling towards Fred (re: cycles)
Fred> Right.
jack> :-)
jack> we listnin D!
Drew> OK getting and staying grounded seems to be a challenge for me
jack> what sorts of things do you use for that purpose now?
Drew> and I have some concerns about that with regard to MMO
jack> yes, copy "concerns"... what are they?
Drew> re: techniques , basically imagination.
jack> copy imagination... thanks... and concerns?
Drew> sometimes after a session, I feel very 'charged up', so much so that I can't sleep...
jack> That's a really good question!!! Fred, do you ever experience that?
Fred> No. I don't know what you're talking about.
jack> D can you maybe say a little more? I take it Fred you don't understand the
jack> term grounding?
Fred> I do not understand it.
jack> D?
Drew> I only have a basic understanding
Drew> I kinda like the energy you are bringing into your system...
Drew> needs somewhere to flow to
Drew> and the human body is like a conduit
Fred> It sounds like when Jack talks about the erotic energy flowing up into your chest rather than into ejaculation.
Drew> where spiritual energy meets with earth energy (grounding)
Fred> Maybe it has nothing to do with erotic energy.
Drew> the trick is to have balance
Drew> I believe erotic energy is very much a part of it Fred.
Drew> any thoughts Jack?
jack> The first thing that occurs to me is that it's a _dynamic_ balance, rather than a static balance. In other
jack> words, at times we can really charge ourselves up, but then it's important (IMHO, natch!), like you sed Drew to give all of that
jack> energy somewhere to go. That's at the core of the _regular breaths_ between each
jack> Key Sound breath, and it's also the idea of learning how to "deliver" or convert the
jack> rising energy into the Key Sound (when that feels safe to do...). If you're in a situation
jack> where it doesn't feel safe to use the sound, then it makes sense you'd still feel
jack> charged up. Another form of grounding is tears, another is... ejaculation!
jack> ovr
Drew> are there any others you can think of?
jack> Yes, but first I'd also like to say that if you're in a situation where you can't
jack> really use the sound, you might ALSO consider (for _now__) not doing this practice before bedtime. Instead... reserve some _day_ time on the weekend or something where it's "ok" to
jack> be charged up for a while! Then you can _use_ that energy for other physical activity, creative activity, "pump it" into a visualization of a desired goal,
jack> use it for retreat hunting, apartment hunting (!), etc. There's a couple of others
jack> that occur to me but before that I want to say that using "imagination" for grounding doesn't quite resonate in my experience... for me that would
jack> seem more like the "head" rather than the "ground." Some of the other ways of grounding
jack> are being held or touched by someone in a nurturing way that does not include sexual vibes. Another way (one of my favorites) is soaking in a tub. Sticking your feet in a tub even, or better, in a creek lake or ocean! Flowing water is very "grounding" for
jack> me... Fred, what I'm trying to say here is that these activities help "bring me back to earth" somehow. Does that make any sense to ya?
Fred> It sounds wonderful, but . ..
Fred> It sounds like reentering your body after having been on a cerebral voyage.
jack> Well for me it may be cerebral, but what I'm talking about here is that especially if I DONT ground by ejaculating, then I either may remain really energized for some time after
jack> that, much like Drew is reporting, or I express one (or usually more)
jack> Key Sounds and the automatic Echo Sounds that result from that practice... with a number
jack> of regular breaths in between (which also helps me "settle in" somehow)... or
jack> I will feel a need to do something else to return from the altered state I'm in when I'm erotically charged... Drew does any of this parallel your exp at all?
Drew> I believe it does...
Drew> when i get all charged up without dissipating the energy, that's when I experience trouble.
jack> I kinda thot so. Are the things I mentioned about different ways of grounding (including ejaculation) helpful?
jack> Yeah! Like you're kinda "left in suspended agitation" or something?
Drew> Yes, another good one I've been told is to walk barefoot outside for a while.
jack> By trouble you mean cant sleep? Anything else as part of "trouble"? Yes!!! re: walking barefoot. LITERALLY creating an _electrical ground_ to the earth. Also, just running cold water
jack> over your hands (and feet if possible) can help!
Drew> insomnia seems to be the only manifestation so far...
jack> Copy that! That's why I'm suggesting changing the time you practice. For the time being, perhaps avoid doing practice in the evening before bed. Does that make any sense to you?
Drew> Yeah.
jack> Then at least _some_ of that energy may be a _good_ thing that you can use in other ways!
jack> And your practice wont become just another stress in your life. It sounds
jack> like you definitely need your sleep because of the other stuff going on right now.
jack> Speaking of which Drew, :-) here we are keepin you up late! But I'm glad you've been here
jack> tonite!
Drew> You're right. I think I'll use this point as my off ramp...
jack> Cool, I would just like
Drew> Thanks, I appreciate your kind words.
jack> to say b4 you leave a coupla short things... and you are
jack> very welcome!!!
jack> First, thank you very much for all of your sharing of such personal experience! Also, I'm
jack> really grateful to both of you guys, because even though you've felt somewhat
jack> off track with the practice, etc. Here you are!!! And what I want to say about the
jack> "off track" part, is that THAT _in itself_ is a grounding process!!! You have BOTH been working pretty intensely with this, and have been experiencing a lot
jack> of pleasure while _also_ looking at a lot of important, and sometimes painful issues...
jack> THAT TAKES TREMENDOUS ENERGY!!!
jack> and courage, and persistence. And THIS "cycles" me back to what Fred and I were discussing just b4 you arrived D,
jack> and that is that at times like this, I don't believe you
jack> are "failing" your practice, etc. I encourage you, _as an experiment_
jack> to try framing this phase as an integral part of the journey! It's part of the cycle, part
jack> of _pacing yourself_, it's your deeper s'elves saying they need some time
jack> to integrate and "grok" these new experiences and revelations... and to GROUND them and somehow fit them in to the rest of your life.
jack> So thanks!!!
Fred> Thanks to you, Jack.
Drew> You are very welcome!!!!
Fred> And good luck, Drew.
jack> And to us ALL Fred... we are ALL creating this!!!
Drew> Hear, Hear!
Fred> I have something to ask you, Jack, after Drew has left.
jack> ok, meanwhile Drew would you like a hug?
Drew> I'll take that as my cue, before you guys start talking French!
Drew> Oh, yes please.
jack> ACTION rigolant
Fred> We won't talk French tonight, Drew.
jack> ACTION huggin his buddy Drew!
Fred> Hugs to you, Drew!
Drew> ACTION Hugs Jack and Fred
jack> Get some sleep and check out the transcripts. They should be up by tomorrow evening. G'nite!
Drew> I'll do that, goodnight to you both!
Fred> Good night, Drew.
jack> See you next time. Keep on groundin!!!
jack> Isn't great to meet people like that Fred?
Fred> Jack, I'm hoping I'll receive my new Audio Tape next week. Yes, Dres is great.
Fred> That's Drew.
jack> copy! RE: the Audio Seminar, etc. The production copies won't be shipping until July since
jack> it takes that long to print the box, but I'm gonna go ahead
jack> and send you a "sneak preview" proof copy. then when the production copies are ready
jack> to ship I'll send you one and cash your check.
jack> OK?
Fred> Thanks a million! I'm going to leave Sunday, June 23, for almost two weeks and wanted to take it with me.
jack> OK! I'm glad you told me that!!! I'll try to get that out in tomorrow's mail!
Fred> Thank you, Jack.
jack> My pleasure, good friend! BTW did you feel you got a little better understanding of
jack> "grounding?"
Fred> Not really. I sounds like what I use alcohol for.
jack> Well that may be!!! I think you might be on to something there, and it seems like you _do_ have an understanding of it! A possible difference may be however
jack> that whereas many forms of grounding leave you feeling good, complete, etc. sometimes alcohol, other substances, even ejaculation (remember I sed sometimes!)
jack> can be a "forced grounding" which is what I call the "emotional breaker." That is, it may be more of a shutting down of feeling, and so on. I believe that these substances can be used
jack> sacramentally or addictively... or at least in ways that may not be "helping" in the long run. ovr
Fred> I'm not sure this is along the same lines, but something I try to do is compare the feeling you have when just undergoing autohypnosis with the feeling of eroticism.ovr
jack> Pls continue!
Fred> I don't believe either is exactly like the first feelings of intoxication. But they're all related.
Fred> Are they all a kind of "grounding?"
jack> I think they can be. I think they can be a nurturing form of grounding, or they can be used as emotional breakers (forced grounding... to shut down feeling, esp painful feelings AND pleasurable feelings that are more intense than you're used to, or which i
jack> in any case stimulate guilt, etc.). But autohypnosis and erotic feelings can also be _energizing_ (the part of the cycle that is complementary to grounding), depending
jack> on the content of the suggestions and intent in autohypnosis and erotic experience. Whereas since alcohol is chemically a depressant it's probably for the most part either
jack> an emotional breaker ("this hurts too much" or "this feels too good") or it may be a form of
jack> temporary grounding like a glass of wine with dinner or a beer or two to help relax. That's real tricky tho with alcohol since it does have such a strong addictive quality. That's
jack> why it's important to be alert for its use to force the emotional breaker. If that's happening, it's time to get some help finding more productive ways of dealing with the feelings,
jack> be they painful or pleasant. Is that helpful?
Fred> I think this is all very interesting and thought-provoking.
jack> Question: do you walk much?
Fred> Are you in a hurry? Am I keeping you from something you must do?
Fred> I walk for at least half an hour every day.
Fred> I exercise as I walk -- called "walkshaping."
jack> I'm going to need to take a break in a little while because I go back "on the air" here at 11pm my time... Glad to hear you walk! What do you focus your thots on as you walk?
Fred> Following the instructions on the tape.
jack> All right!!! That's a really great suggestion!!!
Fred> I contacted my new internet company; they gave me a month free; and supposedly you won't have to put up with all that crap.
Fred> We have lots more to talk about. As always, you're the greatest and bonne nuit!
jack> supposedly is the last word I got, Fred. Can you hold on a second while I quit and come back... buffer's full again. Just hold on...
jack> I'm back... the last I got was
jack> that "we have lots more to talk about..."
Fred> I said that, as always, you're the greatest
Fred> and bonne nuit!
jack> ACTION blushing
jack> Ok! Good night! I'll go ahead and add the other thots I had about tonite's discussion at
jack> the end here after my break, and then they'll be on the transcript for you. OK?
Fred> That's great.
jack> I'd like to suggest an experiment for you...
Fred> I'm listening.
jack> To explore what "grounding" means to you personally, how about the next time
jack> or rather that at least _some_ of the times you feel like using
jack> alcohol, instead try a different form of grounding, such as a warm bath or a shower that's a little longer than usual, getting a professional massage, stickin your feet in a creek, etc. What do you think?
Fred> I'll think about it. Quitting smoking was bad enough.
jack> I'm not suggesting you quit anything... I'm just inviting you to experiment a little with a variety of forms of grounding, to expand your repertoire as it were. Do you hear the difference?
Fred> I do.
jack> Coooool! :-) You're a champ, Fred! I'll send you that sneak preview of Release 3.0 of the Audio Seminar and Guide Book tomorrow!
Fred> I'm looking forward to it.
jack> And I'm looking forward to hearing from you about it! I'd better take a break now for a while... Take care of yourself this week, and I hope I'll "see" you hear next time!
jack> that pun
jack> was NOT consciously intended!!!
Fred> You will. Good night.
jack> And good night to you, Fred. Hug ok?
Fred> Hug returned!
jack> ACTION huggin my buddy Fred!
jack> ACTION taking several deep _grounding_ breaths, and hanging a sign on the discussion room door: "back in 1 hr 45 (11pm PDT)"
CHAT 0027 COMMENTARY
jack> Both Fred and Drew raised some important issues tonight!
jack> For example, Fred mentioned early on tonight that he was "...thinking about not ejaculating."
jack> It occurred to me that one _could_ use awareness of thoughts of "holding back" as a signal
jack> that he could be converting still more energy into sound, given how turned on he's feeling. To be cont'd... here's Furrybird... this could be interesting...
jack> As I was saying, if you're thinking about not ejaculating during your practice, it may be a sign that you've slipped away from the focus of the practice, which expressing the
jack> rising erotic energy through the Key Sound and through the responding "Echo" sounds and feelings.
jack> It may mean that you're "going too fast." That you are moving more into a pattern that can lead to ejaculation.
jack> I want to re-emphasize that I don't consider ejaculation "bad" or even undesireable. In fact, I believe it can be an intensely enjoyable part of this practice!
jack> For me it's been far more intensely pleasurable since I've learned to "surround" it with any number of non-ejaculatory orgasms!
jack> By "surround" I mean that I often experience a number non-ejac orgasms both before
jack> AND AFTER orgasms _with_ ejaculation.
jack> Also, I do not consider ejaculation in this practice to be some kind of "failure".
jack> On the contrary, for those for whom it's a customary part of their sexual experience, it can be far more dramatic, pleasurable, "crown-chakra-opening" blissful, and most deeply and intensely and even _ferociously_ intimate!
jack> In contrast, by consciously focusing on _not_ doing... ANYthing... let alone "not" ejaculating! Your energy can get tied up in paradoxical loops,
jack> because ceretain of the very important and _sexy_ deeper selves, or "cells" of our awareness of... "who we are" have trouble visualizing or "getting a handle on" NOT doing...
jack> My point is that by concentrating on NOT... in effect you are using it as your focus of awareness while you are attempting to open yourself erotically.
jack> That seems contradictory to me!
jack> I can also imagine that at other times it could be quite sexy!
jack> The important ingredient for me keeps coming back to am I using the sound, or at least as Mike from San Diego does, _visualizing_ or _imagining_ I'm making the sounds, BUT ALLOWING MYSELF TO MAKE THE BREATHS THAT WOULD NATURALLY GO WITH SOUNDS LIKE THAT...
jack> These expulsions of air can be QUITE forceful!!! In fact they may at times be even MORE forceful than the breaths with sound, since _more_ of the erotic energy "has to" go through the breath, if the sound is "not available" to "accept" any
jack> of the orgasmic surges!
jack> This brings me to Drew's concerns about sound in his current living situation.
jack> I hope he and Mike from San Diego can have a direct chat soon, since he seems to have
jack> a lot of clarity about how to work with this energy when sound is either still not comfortable, or simply not preferred.
jack> My own experience is that at certain times and in certain places I too have to be
jack> really quiet, yet want to feel this kind of pleasure, and connection with myself and with a loved one.
jack> For me it's usually necessary to expel a greater volume of air to release the orgasmic energy. Nevertheless I still find that my _preference_ is to use breath AND sound.
jack> I find these orgasms to be _way_ more intense... fuller... more completely and profoundly satisfying...
jack> Drew also mentioned that sometimes it was "tough to delay." The way this lead right into a discussion of his current concerns about using sound to me underscored that
jack> this kind of thinking, or of _trying not to ejaculate_ can serve as a signal to redirect our focus back to moving the energy out
jack> through the breath and specific ("Key" and "sounds
jack> that is, ("Key" and "Echo") sounds.
jack> I was really glad to hear both Drew and Fred say they were really enjoying these new feelings,
jack> even tho they feel they haven't yet experienced "orgasm". I'm remembering the earlier chats and email from Mike in San Diego talking about
jack> how important it was to relax and enjoy the feelings.
jack> I believe he also noted that this way of "relaxing into" the non-ejaculatory multiple orgasms is
jack> _directly opposite_ of the vigorous rapid kind of stimulation so many of us use (quite effectively!), alone or with partners, that leads to ejaculation.
jack> I hope both Fred and Drew will either email me or check in next week on chat (or both!) to
jack> describe what _their_ actual experience of feeling like they were "standing right
jack> in front of the gate" to MMO. Somebody please remind me to ask them! :-)
jack> Drew, Fred, how did you know you were "at the Gate"? How was your breathing? How were you aware of erotic energy in your body? In what areas?
jack> What forms did the energy take? sound? undulations? tingling? shaking?
jack> I'd just like to re-iterate that for me and a growing number of others, regardless of sexual orientation _or even gender_ the "Open Sesame!" that opens _these_ Gates of Pleasure Treasure is... the Key Sound as I demonstrate in the second audio seminar.
jack> ACTION taking at least 4 or 5 regular breaths...
jack> Drew, my wish for you is that as time goes on you'll be able to grow your life in such a way
jack> that you'll have more and more time in places where you'll feel the option of being able to express sounds as powerfully as you wish, erotic or otherwise!
jack> I really loved the dialogue you two got into with each other! Some interesting similarities, and enlightening contrasts...
jack> I love the amazing diversity of experience people are reporting as a result of
jack> these explorations!
jack> I was thinking about the contrast of Drew's preference for long periods of time, and Fred's preference for much shorter ones.
jack> I'd like to suggest an experiment for each of you. In a way, explore the other side of your own cycle! For example Drew, maybe you could look for some times when you can just take
jack> a few moments to do a little breathing while _visualizing_ the sounds (see Mike B's reports on the Web site in his stories and in the chats he was in: go to Key Sound Male Multiple Orgasm Annotated Chat Archives Index
jack> is annotated so you can just search for "MikeB" in the chat index. Using Netscape, just
jack> access the above listed page,
jack> and go into the Edit menu in Netscape, use Find and search on MikeB.
jack> In other words, find some times where you're not trying to go all the way through the Gate.
jack> The Gate may find you!!!
jack> But that's not really the point. To me the point is to give yourself more options. To become
jack> more flexible in the ways you practice this, and BY ALL MEANS give yourself times with this
jack> when you're not trying hard to find that "way through" to the multiple orgasms.
jack> Meanwhile, Fred you might consider experimenting with _longer_ periods of time. Again with the intention of giving yourself more options,
and greater flexibility in your practice.
jack> This can also reveal to you any furballs (unresolved emotional issues) that might be pushing you to "get it over with".
jack> So I hope you'll give that a try, just extending your practice time a _little_ bit; try taking your Key Sound practice into higher levels of
excitement... just _a little_ further than you have been so far, before you
jack> "shift gears" and go for ejaculorgasm.
jack> This will also be an opportunity for you to apply that awareness you got tonite... that when you find yourself "standing before the Gate," use the Key Sound as your "Open Sesame!"
jack> I hope you'll work with this a bit and let us know what you discover.
jack> Also, I hope that from time to time both you and Drew will read back through the chats you've been in so far, to recall what you _have_ discovered. And how intense some of that
jack> has been!
jack> Thanks again to both of you!
jack> I'm hearing from Ed and from Lonnie via email, they're trying to get all of the chat
jack> jazz figured out.
jack> Know what would really help everybody?
jack> It would be for each of you who have been on the chat, to email me a description of how you finally got it all figured out. What you needed to do to get set up and get
jack> in here!
jack> Fred has already done so, describing how he used Homer to get through to us on his Mac Powerbook. I want to put his together with some others and post it to the web site, so all of us can help each other figure out how to get on here!
jack> Well, it's been a very rich discussion evening. I hope you who are reading this will find
jack> these discussions to help _you_ understand more about your sexuality, and perhaps more about that of your partners, and that your deepest selves will reawaken the DNA memories
jack> of how to open to these energies which drive the cosmos!
jack> Good night!
jack> ACTION staggering out the door after 6hrs online tonite... smiling...
chat schedule,
jack> then I took a break, got back right about 6...
Fred> I think I came on an hour too early.
jack> Yeah! This might be a good
jack> oppty to talk a little about "World Time" or Greenwich Mean Time (GMT)...
jack> In this modern age of global real time communication,
Fred> I'm listening.
jack> it's a good idea to know how to translate World Time or GMT into your local time. This is
jack> what amateur radio operators, shortwave listeners, now Internet users, and a WHOLE
jack> bunch of other folk do in order to communicate thru the Global Brain. For example,
jack> I found out that here in Oregon, USA when we're on Daylight Savings Time, I have to SUBTRACT _seven_ hours from whatever World Time is to figure out my local time.
jack> Conversely,
jack> If I need to translate my local time INTO World Time, I must (during Daylight Savings Time) ADD 7 hours. When we go off of Daylight S.T., the 7 becomes an 8.
jack> Are you on Mtn Time? Is it Daylight Savings Time also?
Fred> Yes.
jack> So, it's about 7:15pm where you are in Utah?
Fred> Exactly.
jack> OK, since you are one hour CLOSER to Greenwich England than I am, for you during Daylight
jack> Savings Time, the magic number is 6. When you "Fall Back" to regular time in the Fall, your magic number becomes 7. grok?
Fred> I don't know what "grok" means, but I'll remember it.
jack> The direct reference for "grok" is Robert Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land. It's worth
jack> a read to get the full contextual meaning, but briefly,
jack> grok means something like you REALLY get it... viscerally... like a lot of the Male Multiple Orgasm we've been learning! Grok?
Fred> Viscerally. Yes.
jack> All right!!! Fred, I'm thinking of moving the early evening (here) chat time from 6pm to 7pm. (8pm your time) Would that work for you? I'm getting
jack> mail from a number of people who say it'd be a better time for them...
Fred> It would be fine for me.
Fred> Anything to attract others!
jack> Great!!! Well, I've sent an email to everybody on the list saying I'd
jack> be here til 7:30 tonite... that I'd keep the channel open. so, what's
jack> your pleasure, would you like to go ahead and discuss some things, or check back a little
jack> later? I'm gonna be here regardless, with the "doors open to the discussion room" in any case.
Fred> Jack, I don't have anything to talk about. My hope is to hear somebody who'll inspire me to get back on the track.
jack> Feeling discouraged?
Fred> I've fallen by the wayside -- haven't practised.
jack> Well, may I suggest another way of considering what's happening?
Fred> By all means.
jack> I think it's REALLY important in this process to recognize the conditioning many of us get in this culture, that everything we do or try to do is
jack> "graded" (by?) on a Win/Lose or Pass/Fail basis. I'd like to toss into
jack> the discussion an alternative model. An old one really, the idea that all life flows in cycles... does that suggest any alternative ways of viewing what's happening (or "not" happening) vis a vis MMO/
jack> ?
Fred> I don't know. I have never thought of my life in terms of cycles.
jack> yet?
jack> :-)
Fred> I'm happy to learn anything you suggest. It's always worthwhile.
jack> I'm glad you feel that way! Thanks! BTW, here comes Drew!
Fred> Very good!
jack> gimme just a sec to help him in the door...
jack> Good evening Drew!
Drew> did I make it?
jack> You did!!!
Fred> It's great to hear from you again, Drew.
jack> Did you have probs?
Drew> Hi Guys!!!
Drew> Yeah, it was user error!
jack> you mean the way you were entering a cmd or something?
Drew> I couldn't see the bottom of the scrolling window, along with your instructions
Drew> I've fixed it now though
jack> Did it seem to be a problem at our end, or did you need to resize a window or what?
Drew> no, not at all. It was all at my end.
Drew> I resized a window, thats all.
jack> OK, just wanna make sure we're technically in synch at this end! Glad you made it!
jack> OK! That's a good tip!!! BTW, did you copy Fred's greeting right when you came in?
Drew> Me too!! What's the topic tonight?
Drew> Yeah! Thanks Fred, how ya doin'
Fred> I'm ok, but am interested in how you're doing, Drew.
Drew> Well, I'm doin' OK. Life is rather stressful at the moment, I'm coping well though.
&127; Fred> I remember that's what you said before.
Drew> It's not leaving much time to pratice Male Multiple Orgasm though.
Fred> I've fallen off on my practice terribly
Fred> was hoping you'd inspire me to get back on.
Drew> Actually, I've made a conscious decision not to pratice at the moment.
Fred> I'll have to be inspired by Jack then.
jack> ACTION groaning under the weight on my shoulders :-)
Drew> I just wouldn't feel right, more like another chore...
Fred> I see what you mean.
Drew> I've decided not to practice, unless I can alot at least a few hours to be with myself.
Fred> I've never given it that much time!
Fred> I can begin to get where I want to go quite fast now.
Drew> For me, it just seems to take that amoount of time at present
Fred> It's just that I've got to keep in mind that I'm not going toward ejaculation!
Drew> If I have a limited amount of time, there seems to be a stronger urge to ejaculate.
Fred> Jack did a lot to get me over my disgust at ejaculation.
Drew> For me it's a very pleasant experience, it's kinda tough to delay it, even when you've been told there's something even better beyond it.
Fred> I enjoy the feelings I now get, even if they are not climax.
Drew> That's true for me too...
Drew> I just canot seem to go through the 'gate', I'm pretty sure I've stood before it.
Fred> I feel exactly the same.
jack> So what is the Male Multiple Orgasm equivalent of "Open Sesame!"
jack> the Key Sound? as I demonstrate in the audio seminar.
Drew> DOUGH!!!!
jack> ACTION crackin up...
Drew> Actually, I'm having trouble with the sound part...
Drew> I live in an apartment with real thin walls.
Drew> so I'm quite self-conscious about making the 'roar'
jack> how does being in that place affect your other sexual experience ?
Drew> What other sexual experience????????
jack> any...
jack> even solo...
Drew> Well, since I don't have a partner at present they are solo...
Drew> NOone Male Multiple Orgasm is not a problem for me
jack> Are you saying that because of the thin walls there, you haven't felt ok to be sexual there at all?
Fred> It's that old thing about "noise," Jack.
Drew> NO, I'm saying I can be sexual in silence.
jack> kind of "resigned to..." being sexual in silence?
jack> or is it ok with you?
Drew> I suppose so.
Drew> It's not really OK
jack> to?
jack> or re:?
Drew> To really express intense pleasure, I presume that would get loud.
jack> Not absolutely necessary, maybe, but it's been my experience that being able to be
jack> in a place that feels safe enough to allow the sound greatly intensifies the experience, and
jack> the degree of "satisfaction" or "nurturance" and "healing" or "soothing" that seems
jack> to result. I'm _very_ sorry to hear that you're living in a place that doesn't feel safe enough
jack> to be able to open that way. I've got a feeling you're not alone at all in facing that
jack> kind of predicament. There are a few structural things you might be able to
jack> do with the place, but I can also understand that all of the padding in the world might
jack> not necessarily help - in _that_ particular place, because of... other vibes, etc. What's your sense of that?
Drew> I agree, it's certainly not an optimal environment to pratice.
Drew> at the same time , it's where I live right now
Drew> so I suppose I'll have to work with it.
jack> yeah, I hear that! I'm into brainstorming with you to figure out how to make it better, maybe a little safer feeling...
Drew> I'm all ears.
jack> To begin, I want to acknowledge
jack> a couple of things Fred said, about "noise" vs. "sound" Drew, did you
jack> happen to take a look at the discussion Fred and I had about that in the transcripts?
Drew> I may have, I don't recall right now though.
jack> Wasn't that last week Fred?
Fred> Yes.
jack> When you get a chance, and I hear you when you say you're feelin maxed right now,
jack> I hope you'll be able to give it a look. Meanwhile, your situation is a real good example of how a lot of
jack> folks in our culture are restricted from fully feeling erotic experience because of
jack> the kinds of living situations they are in. And that in our culture there seems to be a
jack> MAJOR taboo about erotic sound. I can also say that if I were next door to you, I wouldn't
jack> necessarily feel comfortable about it either... but... like you say, it's where you ARE, for today... have you ever heard of egg crate foam?
Drew> Point taken! Re: egg crate foam, yes I have.
jack> That may help! It can cost some $ though... but it may not be necessary to do the whole apt in it! In fact it _could_ be a fairly small (read "cozy"?) space! If you were
jack> to combine that with some _safe_ covering directly over your mouth BUT IN SUCH
jack> A WAY THAT BREATHING IS NOT RESTRICTED... you might feel ok about allowing a bit
jack> more sound to happen. You might also give R.D.'s Interview at the end of the Audio Seminar
jack> another listen, for the story of how HE dealt with that... living with a roommate (not a sexual partner) etc.
jack> Another thot
jack> occurs to me as well, that you might consider in combo with some form of the preceeding:
jack> that is to start looking for a place or places you can retreat to from time to time, as you are able (financially and otherwise)
jack> to be able to open up a little more to the sound a little more... maybe camping on some
jack> land you know is private and remote, or housesitting for a friend who has a better
&127; jack> situation, etc. Any ideas about this Fred?
Fred> I'm sorry that I don't have anything to suggest, but I sympathize,
Drew> good suggestions, thanks Jack.
jack> I hope you'll keep us posted on how it goes with
Drew> I sure will.
jack> checking out a number of options that are within your means.
jack> copy!
jack> :-)
jack> Drew, I wish you the very best on that quest, and I hope
jack> that you'll experiment with making your situation different somehow, if even
jack> just for a few hours, or a day, or a weekend... whatever's feasible.
jack> May I recap some of the stuff we've been talking about?
Fred> Please do.
jack> D?
Drew> yep!
jack> Thanks to both of you! Whew, first of all, there is a RICH opportunity to explore a number of issues in this tonite. First, a practical item that Fred and I were
jack> discussing. I've been getting a lot of mail asking for a _little_ later time for the chat. I'd discussed with Fred,
jack> and had sent an email out to The List that I was thinking of starting an hour later for
jack> this chat, but then just as you logged on Drew, I remembered that you're more of an
jack> early person... so it just occurred to me that maybe what I oughtta do is just say I'll
jack> open the channel at 6pm my time and leave it open til at least 7:30 if nobody shows. Of course, I'm into going well beyond that time
jack> when people ARE able to make it in! I'll chat til I drop!!! BTW, for our friends out in the
jack> PacRim and any other interested souls, I'll be REopening this channel at 11pm my time tonite! I real eyes neither of you guys might be
jack> into THAT! But I'm trying to hit all the major time zones. So, Drew, what do you think
jack> about the 6pm vs 7pm thing? Would you rather I go ahead and retain the start time of
jack> 6 and just extend the hours?
jack> Still there D?
Drew> yep
jack> Do you prefer a 6pm PDT start time... do you think I should keep that start time, just keep the doors open longer/
jack> ?
Drew> yep, with the three hour time diff
Drew> it's already quite late here
jack> Copy! thot so! Ok, brotherman, you got it! Interestingly, some of the email was from easterners! Just different circadian rhythms... I'm kind of an owl myself!
jack> OK it's official! I'll keep the start time at 6pm PDT for my buddies like Drew :-), and
jack> stick around longer for the rest of the gang... Now if I may, for a little bit, I'd like to
Drew> I should be getting ready for bed, I'm not a morning person, and it's a real struggle for me to get up some days.
jack> I understand! If it's ok with Fred, after we say g'nite to ya, I'll go
jack> ahead and comment on some of the stuff that's come up tonite and you can check the transcript, ok Drew?
Drew> sure.
jack> K Fred?
Fred> Will there be transcripts on the net of the late night chats?
jack> You betcha! Once people start showin up for them. Transcripts from all THREE chats will go up! i.e from the noon PDT, 6pm PDT, and 11pm PDT chats!!!
Fred> Great -- but that's a lot of work for you.
jack> I'm trying to get us all together, wherever on the plan-it we might be.
jack> Yes it IS a lot of work... but til further notice anyway, I'm into it! I'm really excited
Fred> I understand how it's hard to get to bed, Drew. If you have to go, for whatever it's worth, I'm with you.
jack> about all of the sharing that's ALREADY been happening here since last November.
Fred> I meant I understand how hard it is to get up in the morning!
jack> Drew pls hang around another minute. I gotta quit the channel and come right back to clear the buffer, else I can't read what you say, and I wanna say g'nite properly!
jack> I'm back...
jack> who has the Talkin Stick?
Drew> Before I go Jack, one quick question (there may not be a quick andwer)
jack> yes!
jack> ACTION now seeing Talkin Stick in Drew's hand...
Drew> are you familiar with the term 'grounding' with regard to the human energy field?
jack> yes, altho I'm sure it may have many nuances of meaning depending on who's using it... but... yes I believe
jack> I'm familiar with it... also in terms
jack> of nature-based spiritual traditions, etc. the concept is paired with "raising the power" part of a cyclical model
jack> ACTION nodding and smiling towards Fred (re: cycles)
Fred> Right.
jack> :-)
jack> we listnin D!
Drew> OK getting and staying grounded seems to be a challenge for me
jack> what sorts of things do you use for that purpose now?
Drew> and I have some concerns about that with regard to MMO
jack> yes, copy "concerns"... what are they?
Drew> re: techniques , basically imagination.
jack> copy imagination... thanks... and concerns?
Drew> sometimes after a session, I feel very 'charged up', so much so that I can't sleep...
jack> That's a really good question!!! Fred, do you ever experience that?
Fred> No. I don't know what you're talking about.
jack> D can you maybe say a little more? I take it Fred you don't understand the
jack> term grounding?
Fred> I do not understand it.
jack> D?
Drew> I only have a basic understanding
Drew> I kinda like the energy you are bringing into you system...
Drew> needs somewhere to flow to
Drew> and the human body is like a conduit
Fred> It sounds like when Jack talks about the erotic energy flowing up into your chest rather than into ejaculation.
Drew> where spiritual energy meets with earth energy (grounding)
Fred> Maybe it has nothing to do with erotic energy.
Drew> the trick is to have balance
Drew> I believe erotic energy is very much a part of it Fred.
Drew> any thoughts Jack?
jack> The first thing that occurs to me is that it's a _dynamic_ balance, rather than a static balance. In other
jack> words, at times we can really charge ourselves up, but then it's important (IMHO, natch!), like you sed Drew to give all of that
jack> energy somewhere to go. That's at the core of the _regular breaths_ between each
jack> Key Sound breath, and it's also the idea of learning how to "deliver" or convert the
jack> rising energy into the Key Sound (when that feels safe to do...). If you're in a situation
jack> where it doesn't feel safe to use the sound, then it makes sense you'd still feel
jack> charged up. Another form of grounding is tears, another is... ejaculation!
jack> ovr
Drew> are there any others you can think of?
jack> Yes, but first I'd also like to say that if you're in a situation where you can't
jack> really use the sound, you might ALSO consider (for _now__) not doing this practice before bedtime. Instead... reserve some _day_ time on the weekend or something where it's "ok" to
jack> be charged up for a while! Then you can _use_ that energy for other physical activity, creative activity, "pump it" into a visualization of a desired goal,
jack> use it for retreat hunting, apartment hunting (!), etc. There's a couple of others
jack> that occur to me but before that I want to say that using "imagination" for grounding doesn't quite resonate in my experience... for me that would
jack> seem more like the "head" rather than the "ground." Some of the other ways of grounding
jack> are being held or touched by someone in a nurturing way that does not include sexual vibes. Another way (one of my favorites) is soaking in a tub. Sticking your feet in a tub even, or better, in a creek lake or ocean! Flowing water is very "grounding" for
jack> me... Fred, what I'm trying to say here is that these activities help "bring me back to earth" somehow. Does that make any sense to ya?
Fred> It sounds wonderful, but . ..
Fred> It sounds like reentering your body after having been on a cerebral voyage.
jack> Well for me it may be cerebral, but what I'm talking about here is that especially if I DONT ground by ejaculating, then I either may remain really energized for some time after
jack> that, much like Drew is reporting, or I express one (or usually more)
jack> Key Sounds and the automatic Echo Sounds that result from that practice... with a number
jack> of regular breaths in between (which also helps me "settle in" somehow)... or
jack> I will feel a need to do something else to return from the altered state I'm in when I'm erotically charged... Drew does any of this parallel your exp at all?
Drew> I believe it does...
Drew> when i get all charged up without dissipating the energy, that's when I experience trouble.
jack> I kinda thot so. Are the things I mentioned about different ways of grounding (including ejaculation) helpful?
jack> Yeah! Like you're kinda "left in suspended agitation" or something?
Drew> Yes, another good one I've been told is to walk barefoot outside for a while.
jack> By trouble you mean cant sleep? Anything else as part of "trouble"? Yes!!! re: walking barefoot. LITERALLY creating an _electrical ground_ to the earth. Also, just running cold water
jack> over your hands (and feet if possible) can help!
Drew> insomnia seems to be the only manifestation so far...
jack> Copy that! That's why I'm suggesting changing the time you practice. For the time being, perhaps avoid doing practice in the evening before bed. Does that make any sense to you?
Drew> Yeah.
jack> Then at least _some_ of that energy may be a _good_ thing that you can use in other ways!
jack> And your practice wont become just another stress in your life. It sounds
jack> like you definitely need your sleep because of the other stuff going on right now.
jack> Speaking of which Drew, :-) here we are keepin you up late! But I'm glad you've been here
jack> tonite!
Drew> You're right. I think I'll use this point as my off ramp...
jack> Cool, I would just like
Drew> Thanks, I appreciate your kind words.
jack> to say b4 you leave a coupla short things... and you are
jack> very welcome!!!
jack> First, thank you very much for all of your sharing of such personal experience! Also, I'm
jack> really grateful to both of you guys, because even though you've felt somewhat
jack> off track with the practice, etc. Here you are!!! And what I want to say about the
jack> "off track" part, is that THAT _in itself_ is a grounding process!!! You have BOTH been working pretty intensely with this, and have been experiencing a lot
jack> of pleasure while _also_ looking at a lot of important, and sometimes painful issues...
jack> THAT TAKES TREMENDOUS ENERGY!!!
jack> and courage, and persistence. And THIS "cycles" me back to what Fred and I were discussing just b4 you arrived D,
jack> and that is that at times like this, I don't believe you
jack> are "failing" your practice, etc. I encourage you, _as an experiment_
jack> to try framing this phase as an integral part of the journey! It's part of the cycle, part
jack> of _pacing yourself_, it's your deeper s'elves saying they need some time
jack> to integrate and "grok" these new experiences and revelations... and to GROUND them and somehow fit them in to the rest of your life.
jack> So thanks!!!
Fred> Thanks to you, Jack.
Drew> You are very welcome!!!!
Fred> And good luck, Drew.
jack> And to us ALL Fred... we are ALL creating this!!!
Drew> Hear, Hear!
Fred> I have something to ask you, Jack, after Drew has left.
jack> ok, meanwhile Drew would you like a hug?
Drew> I'll take that as my cue, before you guys start talking French!
Drew> Oh, yes please.
jack> ACTION rigolant
Fred> We won't talk French tonight, Drew.
jack> ACTION huggin his buddy Drew!
Fred> Hugs to you, Drew!
Drew> ACTION Hugs Jack and Fred
jack> Get some sleep and check out the transcripts. They should be up by tomorrow evening. G'nite!
Drew> I'll do that, goodnight to you both!
Fred> Good night, Drew.
jack> See you next time. Keep on groundin!!!
jack> Isn't great to meet people like that Fred?
Fred> Jack, I'm hoping I'll receive my new Audio Tape next week. Yes, Dres is great.
Fred> That's Drew.
jack> copy! RE: the Audio Seminar, etc. The production copies won't be shipping until July since
jack> it takes that long to print the box, but I'm gonna go ahead
jack> and send you a "sneak preview" proof copy. then when the production copies are ready
jack> to ship I'll send you one and cash your check.
jack> OK?
Fred> Thanks a million! I'm going to leave Sunday, June 23, for almost two weeks and wanted to take it with me.
jack> OK! I'm glad you told me that!!! I'll try to get that out in tomorrow's mail!
Fred> Thank you, Jack.
jack> My pleasure, good friend! BTW did you feel you got a little better understanding of
jack> "grounding?"
Fred> Not really. I sounds like what I use alcohol for.
jack> Well that may be!!! I think you might be on to something there, and it seems like you _do_ have an understanding of it! A possible difference may be however
jack> that whereas many forms of grounding leave you feeling good, complete, etc. sometimes alcohol, other substances, even ejaculation (remember I sed sometimes!)
jack> can be a "forced grounding" which is what I call the "emotional breaker." That is, it may be more of a shutting down of feeling, and so on. I believe that these substances can be used
jack> sacramentally or addictively... or at least in ways that may not be "helping" in the long run. ovr
Fred> I'm not sure this is along the same lines, but something I try to do is compare the feeling you have when just undergoing autohynosis with the feeling of eroticism.ovr
jack> Pls continue!
Fred> I don't believe either is exactly like the first feelings of intoxication. But they're all related.
Fred> Are they all a kind of "grounding?"
jack> I think they can be. I think they can be a nurturing form of grounding, or they can be used as emotional breakers (forced grounding... to shut down feeling, esp painful feelings AND pleasurable feelings that are more intense than you're used to, or which i
jack> in any case stimulate guilt, etc.). But autohypnosis and erotic feelings can also be _energizing_ (the part of the cycle that is complementary to grounding), depending
jack> on the content of the suggestions and intent in autohypnosis and erotic experience. Whereas since alcohol is chemically a depressant it's probably for the most part either
jack> an emotional breaker ("this hurts too much" or "this feels too good") or it may be a form of
jack> temporary grounding like a glass of wine with dinner or a beer or two to help relax. That's real tricky tho with alcohol since it does have such a strong addictive quality. That's
jack> why it's important to be alert for its use to force the emotional breaker. If that's happening, it's time to get some help finding more productive ways of dealing with the feelings,
jack> be they painful or pleasant. Is that helpful?
Fred> I think this is all very interesting and thought-provoking.
jack> Question: do you walk much?
Fred> Are you in a hurry? Am I keeping you from something you must do?
Fred> I walk for at least half an hour every day.
Fred> I exercise as I walk -- called "walkshaping."
jack> I'm going to need to take a break in a little while because I go back "on the air" here at 11pm my time... Glad to hear you walk! What do you focus your thots on as you walk?
Fred> Following the instructions on the tape.
jack> All right!!! That's a really great suggestion!!!
Fred> I contacted my new internet company; they gave me a month free; and supposedly you won't have to put up with all that crap.
Fred> We have lots more to talk about. As always, you're the greatest and bonne nuit!
jack> supposedly is the last word I got, Fred. Can you hold on a second while I quit and come back... buffer's full again. Just hold on...
jack> I'm back... the last I got was
jack> that "we have lots more to talk about..."
Fred> I said that, as always, you're the greatest
Fred> and bonne nuit!
jack> ACTION blushing
jack> Ok! Good night! I'll go ahead and add the other thots I had about tonite's discussion at
jack> the end here after my break, and then they'll be on the transcript for you. OK?
Fred> That's great.
jack> I'd like to suggest an experiment for you...
Fred> I'm listening.
jack> To explore what "grounding" means to you personally, how about the next time
jack> or rather that at least _some_ of the times you feel like using
jack> alcohol, instead try a different form of grounding, such as a warm bath or a shower that's a little longer than usual, getting a professional massage, stickin your feet in a creek, etc. What do you think?
Fred> I'll think about it. Quitting smoking was bad enough.
jack> I'm not suggesting you quit anything... I'm just inviting you to experiment a little with a variety of forms of grounding, to expand your repertoire as it were. Do you hear the difference?
Fred> I do.
jack> Coooool! :-) You're a champ, Fred! I'll send you that sneak preview of Release 3.0 of the Audio Seminar and Guide Book tomorrow!
Fred> I'm looking forward to it.
jack> And I'm looking forward to hearing from you about it! I'd better take a break now for a while... Take care of yourself this week, and I hope I'll "see" you hear next time!
jack> that pun
jack> was NOT consciously intended!!!
Fred> You will. Good night.
jack> And good night to you, Fred. Hug ok?
Fred> Hug returned!
jack> ACTION huggin my buddy Fred!
jack> ACTION taking several deep _grounding_ breaths, and hanging a sign on the discussion room door: "back in 1 hr 45 (11pm PDT)"
CHAT 0027 COMMENTARY
jack> Both Fred and Drew raised some important issues tonight!
jack> For example, Fred mentioned early on tonight that he was "...thinking about not ejaculating."
jack> It occurred to me that one _could_ use awareness of thoughts of "holding back" as a signal
jack> that he could be converting still more energy into sound, given how turned on he's feeling. To be cont'd... here's Furrybird... this could be interesting...
jack> As I was saying, if you're thinking about not ejaculating during your practice, it may be a sign that you've slipped away from the focus of the practice, which expressing the
jack> rising erotic energy through the Key Sound and through the responding "Echo" sounds and feelings.
jack> It may mean that you're "going too fast." That you are moving more into a pattern that can lead to ejaculation.
jack> I want to re-emphasize that I don't consider ejaculation "bad" or even undesireable. In fact, I believe it can be an intensely enjoyable part of this practice!
jack> For me it's been far more intensely pleasurable since I've learned to "surround" it with any number of non-ejaculatory orgasms!
jack> By "surround" I mean that I often experience a number non-ejac orgasms both before
jack> AND AFTER orgasms _with_ ejaculation.
jack> Also, I do not consider ejaculation in this practice to be some kind of "failure".
jack> On the contrary, for those for whom it's a customary part of their sexual experience, it can be far more dramatic, pleasurable, "crown-chakra-opening" blissful, and most deeply and intensely and even _ferociously_ intimate!
jack> In contrast, by consciously focusing on _not_ doing... ANYthing... let alone "not" ejaculating! Your energy can get tied up in paradoxical loops,
jack> because ceretain of the very important and _sexy_ deeper selves, or "cells" of our awareness of... "who we are" have trouble visualizing or "getting a handle on" NOT doing...
jack> My point is that by concentrating on NOT... in effect you are using it as your focus of awareness while you are attempting to open yourself erotically.
jack> That seems contradictory to me!
jack> I can also imagine that at other times it could be quite sexy!
jack> The important ingredient for me keeps coming back to am I using the sound, or at least as Mike from San Diego does, _visualizing_ or _imagining_ I'm making the sounds, BUT ALLOWING MYSELF TO MAKE THE BREATHS THAT WOULD NATURALLY GO WITH SOUNDS LIKE THAT...
jack> These expulsions of air can be QUITE forceful!!! In fact they may at times be even MORE forceful than the breaths with sound, since _more_ of the erotic energy "has to" go through the breath, if the sound is "not available" to "accept" any
jack> of the orgasmic surges!
jack> This brings me to Drew's concerns about sound in his current living situation.
jack> I hope he and Mike from San Diego can have a direct chat soon, since he seems to have
jack> a lot of clarity about how to work with this energy when sound is either still not comfortable, or simply not preferred.
jack> My own experience is that at certain times and in certain places I too have to be
jack> really quiet, yet want to feel this kind of pleasure, and connection with myself and with a loved one.
jack> For me it's usually necessary to expel a greater volume of air to release the orgasmic energy. Nevertheless I still find that my _preference_ is to use breath AND sound.
jack> I find these orgasms to be _way_ more intense... fuller... more completely and profoundly satisfying...
jack> Drew also mentioned that sometimes it was "tough to delay." The way this lead right into a discussion of his current concerns about using sound to me underscored that
jack> this kind of thinking, or of _trying not to ejaculate_ can serve as a signal to redirect our focus back to moving the energy out
jack> through the breath and specific ("Key" and "sounds
jack> that is, ("Key" and "Echo") sounds.
jack> I was really glad to hear both Drew and Fred say they were really enjoying these new feelings,
jack> even tho they feel they haven't yet experienced "orgasm". I'm remembering the earlier chats and email from Mike in San Diego talking about
jack> how important it was to relax and enjoy the feelings.
jack> I believe he also noted that this way of "relaxing into" the non-ejaculatory multiple orgasms is
jack> _directly opposite_ of the vigorous rapid kind of stimulation so many of us use (quite effectively!), alone or with partners, that leads to ejaculation.
jack> I hope both Fred and Drew will either email me or check in next week on chat (or both!) to
jack> describe what _their_ actual experience of feeling like they were "standing right
jack> in front of the gate" to MMO. Somebody please remind me to ask them! :-)
jack> Drew, Fred, how did you know you were "at the Gate"? How was your breathing? How were you aware of erotic energy in your body? In what areas?
jack> What forms did the energy take? sound? undulations? tingling? shaking?
jack> I'd just like to re-iterate that for me and a growing number of others, regardless of sexual orientation _or even gender_ the "Open Sesame!" that opens _these_ Gates of Pleasure Treasure is... Key Sound? as I demonstrate in the audio seminar.
jack> ACTION taking at least 4 or 5 regular breaths...
jack> Drew, my wish for you is that as time goes on you'll be able to grow your life in such a way
jack> that you'll have more and more time in places where you'll feel the option of being able to express sounds as powerfully as you wish, erotic or otherwise!
jack> I really loved the dialogue you two got into with each other! Some interesting similarities, and enlightening contrasts...
jack> I love the amazing diversity of experience people are reporting as a result of
jack> these explorations!
jack> I was thinking about the contrast of Drew's preference for long periods of time, and Fred's preference for much shorter ones.
jack> I'd like to suggest an experiment for each of you. In a way, explore the other side of your own cycle! For example Drew, maybe you could look for some times when you can just take
jack> a few moments to do a little breathing while _visualizing_ the sounds (see Mike B's reports on the Web site in his stories and in the chats he was in: go to Key Sound Male Multiple Orgasm Annotated Chat Archives Index
jack> is annotated so you can just search for "MikeB" in the chat index. Using Netscape, just
jack> access the above listed page,
jack> and go into the Edit menu in Netscape, use Find and search on MikeB.
jack> In other words, find some times where you're not trying to go all the way through the Gate.
jack> The Gate may find you!!!
jack> But that's not really the point. To me the point is to give yourself more options. To become
jack> more flexible in the ways you practice this, and BY ALL MEANS give yourself times with this
jack> when you're not trying hard to find that "way through" to the multiple orgasms.
jack> Meanwhile, Fred you might consider experimenting with _longer_ periods of time. Again with the intention of giving yourself more options,
and greater flexibility in your practice.
jack> This can also reveal to you any furballs (unresolved emotional issues) that might be pushing you to "get it over with".
jack> So I hope you'll give that a try, just extending your practice time a _little_ bit; try taking your Key Sound practice into higher levels of
excitement... just _a little_ further than you have been so far, before you
jack> "shift gears" and go for ejaculorgasm.
jack> This will also be an opportunity for you to apply that awareness you got tonite... that when you find yourself "standing before the Gate," use the Key Sound as your "Open Sesame!"
jack> I hope you'll work with this a bit and let us know what you discover.
jack> Also, I hope that from time to time both you and Drew will read back through the chats you've been in so far, to recall what you _have_ discovered. And how intense some of that
jack> has been!
jack> Thanks again to both of you!
jack> I'm hearing from Ed and from Lonnie via email, they're trying to get all of the chat
jack> jazz figured out.
jack> Know what would really help everybody?
jack> It would be for each of you who have been on the chat, to email me a description of how you finally got it all figured out. What you needed to do to get set up and get
jack> in here!
jack> Fred has already done so, describing how he used Homer to get through to us on his Mac Powerbook. I want to put his together with some others and post it to the web site, so all of us can help each other figure out how to get on here!
jack> Well, it's been a very rich discussion evening. I hope you who are reading this will find
jack> these discussions to help _you_ understand more about your sexuality, and perhaps more about that of your partners, and that your deepest selves will reawaken the DNA memories
jack> of how to open to these energies which drive the cosmos!
jack> Good night!
jack> ACTION staggering out the door after 6hrs online tonite... smiling...